SOD Importer for 3DS Max (ALL VERSIONS)

[MrVulcan]

Hi folks

Just curious what the consensus might be on releasing an open SOD importer for both Armadas.

My personal opinion is that an importer may attract new modders to the scene, and perhaps reinvigorate some of the old timers. Armada modding really needs every boost it can get. There is always the potential for model stealing and other unpleasantries, but those problems exist at present anyway via the Milkshape importer. The new 3dsMax importer will just make importing easier, and without any loss of quality from the original SOD (all lighting, animation and so on will be preserved).

The importer for 3dsMax is nearly complete. While I have many uses for the importer script in personal modding, I would also prefer to have it available to everyone. If you have concerns regarding the importer, please post away.

There may be an option to lock your model to prevent others from importing later. However, all present artwork will be "importable". Furthermore, I'm not sure how strong or useful the "lock" will be. Either way, if this feature is to be developed, it will be included in a later version.

Looking forward to your comments,
Mr. V

 

[Majestic]

Well we've had this with the MS3D importer before, cause a bit of an uproar to a point it's not public available anywhere. It's only available through people who feel others are trustworthy enough to have it. If I had a choice in the matter I would say no, a open importer is a bad idea, because of the abuse. I know those abuses are the minority but it still can cause trouble and hurt. Yes there are other ways to get a model but a lot of these thieves out there aren't cleaver enough to find these ways. People who would abuse an importer are generally lazy, an a importer is a lazy way to rip off someones work.

All my files are password protected in rar files and conditions on my work has been set up that they can't be re-released without my express permission and also have to be password protected. Even DJ Curtis has allowed one of his models to be hosted here by the same means. Which says a bit to me.

Being a victim of model theft I have a unique a perhaps a bit of an bias viewpoint when it comes to things like this. I understand you have the best of intentions Mr V, and no offense is intended by my post.

Oh and despite my concerns if the majority of the MSFC community wants the said importer released I will allow it to be hosted here, if people want restrictions placed upon it, such as something similar to what I do myself again I will support that.

 

[Avon]

I can see both sides, and it's fair to say I have suffered mod theft too and have always felt as Majestic does on this subject.

However, I'm one of those people that has always wanted Max, but as the Importers were only ever available for the old versions, I was always stuck with Milkshape. (Ultimate Unwrap was just too confusing for me as well)

In my opinion the gains to be had from having a working Max, far out-weigh to issues it may cause with theft.

 

[Atlantis]

My personal opinion is that an importer may attract new modders to the scene, and perhaps reinvigorate some of the old timers.

I'm gonna have to disagree with this point. I'd say it will attract NO new original modders at all, just a few people making kitbashes. And for every 10 of those, only 1-3 would be properly credited.

So I would vote "No" on it. It would create more chaos and unpleasantness than it is worth. I'd even say the release of the MS3D importer caused (either directly or through the ensuing model "thefts") more modellers to leave than new ones to take it up... in fact, has the existence of the MS3D importer brought in ANY new talent? I don't think so.

There are other ways that Armada modding can be boosted, ways that promote original thinking and better ways of learning. We should be focussing on them.

 

[pepperman]

I personally feel that good tools should be made available to community. The Armada community whined and cried over the Milkshape importer and were sucessful enough to get the orginal creator to not include it in release. The Milkshape importer for Bridge Commander and Star Fleet Command still exists and has resulted in good models being porteed over for the A1 and A2 communities. Yes, there is posibility of model theft and that will exist with or without an importer. As we are forbidden by the licencse agreements to sell these models (i.e., no royalties involved), I do not see this as a big deal. The modeling community is a self policing group and can look after each other so I'd say go for it Mr. V.

 

[Starfox1701]

While I understand the theft concerns and would in no way seek to belittle those of my friends here, but I know for a fact the the lack of accessible tools for modding this game and its models have hurt this community over the years. An importer is at the top of that list. You can go to any game with a strong modding community and the 2 things they will have in common is an importer and a strong core of people who police the models. We have had the people for years. Its time we had the tools while their is still a community left to use them.

 

[Terra_Inc]

I am not a modeler, so I feel that my opinion is not as informed as that of my fellow modders. Thus, I will leave the discussion to them.

What I can say is this: Whatever happens, I have in the past and will continue to check every submitted mod for theft, be it here at MSFC or at A2F. Mod theft will not be tolerated.

 

[Majestic]

I have always been on the other end of this debate, not wanting the use. However I must add in recent years programs have been created that can rip models straight from games where you don't even need an importer. I have decided to stay neutral this time, as it doesn't affect me as much has it has in the past thanks to how I release my files today. I can see both sides of the coin very well. I know why people would want or not want this released.

It could boost the community but we have to think, this late in the game will anything boost the community. Most of the people who made this community great have passed, Major Payne and Achillies are really the last first ones left, with people such as myself, Starfox and a few others being here almost as long. Most if not all of the only really active modders left can be found here, the good decent people too. There are no new copies of the game, it isn't open source and Fleet Operations is the only thing that could account for as semi-official as it introduces new features that give a breathe of new life into the game. Thinking logically (god I sound like a Vulcan yuck) I don't think an importer will help but this late in the game can it really hurt? MSFC does offer people to restrict their files, so if it is an issue like it is for me, that is always a viable option.

 

[dvatreknerd314]

I can see both sides of the argument I guess, but remembering back to before I had an open MS3D importer, I remember it was quite frustrating when trying to edit a ship I'd converted to armada if I'd forgotten to save it as an ms3d file first (which, at least in my case, happens frequently). I think that the chances of mod theft are quite low since the community is rather small and that the benefits from releasing such an importer outweigh the risks.

 

[MrVulcan]

Hmm.. it appears that there is no consensus for the time being.

I had certain material taken from me and used in another mod without permission. On top of that, when asked about the origins of the material, the individual attempted to represent the work as their own, unaware that I was the author.. When I told that individual that I am the author and that use of the stolen material is unacceptable, he tried to explain that he only used the textures and not the ODF coding. I had only seen the screenshots of the thing in action, so could not build a strong enough case without full evidence, but I knew full well what was going on.

Long story short, I know what its like to have something taken from you, that you have worked long and hard on. Be it a model, a texture, a set of weapon ODFs, or just ideas, theft of any of these is a major pain in the posterior. Nonetheless, the importer is not meant to be a tool for mischief. I learned modding from example; but with so few examples, even now I discover things that should have been known to me ages ago. Perhaps with good policing and the preference for good content will weed out unnecessary kit-bashes and ripoffs. The importer will simply catalyze the growth of knowledge within the community, where the addition of even a few serious modders will represent a growth in the tripple digits.

I am considering options on how a lock may be implemented without damaging the internal structure of the SOD files. Due the open nature of the script (ei, you can view the "code"), it is rather easy to circumvent any simple locking mechanism. Point I'm trying to make is that having a way to lock your models will take some time to implement, if at all possible.. All other features seem to work ok now, including animations, which turned out a lot easier than I anticipated

 

[Avon]

I think that the chances of mod theft are quite low since the community is rather small

The only thing to bear in mind, is it's not just our community you have to worry about.
It's quite often other communities for other games that sometimes think they can get away with theft.
Spotting mod theft in your own community is relatively easy.
Keeping an eye on all the other games communities to make sure they are not stealing your models, is a lot harder

 

[Starfox1701]

Additional security for the importer is not the answer. Like Majestic has said if I really want the model I can get it with any number of snatching programs. Adding that to them importer will only keep the honest people honest and it will limit the usefulness of the tool.

 

[Dominus_Noctis]

In the past Fleet Operations material has been used by other modifications for Armada II and other games, or even in some cases sold on Ebay. We don't think releasing such a program would be harmful, as per the many well reasoned arguments above. At the end of the day, if someone steals work, it is eventually found out and the perpetrators are generally ostracized or fall into obscurity regardless.

 

[CABAL]

I am not a modeler, so I feel that my opinion is not as informed as that of my fellow modders. Thus, I will leave the discussion to them.

What I can say is this: Whatever happens, I have in the past and will continue to check every submitted mod for theft, be it here at MSFC or at A2F. Mod theft will not be tolerated.

Ditto this whole post, basically.

 

[MrVulcan]

I think I'll go for releasing the importer. Perhaps I will do so only here at first. Right now I want to test out all the features properly.

Unfortunately, I'm dealing with some flood damage atm. Was doing some painting when the drain decided to burst and spill stuff all over and under the new laminate flooring.. I'm not happy.

Might be a few days before I can sit down to get this thing finalized.

 

[Majestic]

I hope the flooding wasn't too bad, AU has had a lot of flooding over the past few years and it's never a good thing.

 

[Chiletrek]

Hello:
I agree with Majestic as I also hope you didn't get much damage, and that you are safe, that is always good.

Keep it up! .

 

[Blade]

hiya hope everything is ok my vote would be that an importer maybe be useful

 

[MrVulcan]

The importer is mostly ready, but I haven't worked on it in a while now, my apologies to those that are waiting. Thanks for reminding me about it, Blade, I shall try to get everything ready in a few days. Cheers

Btw, flooding damage wasn't too bad, got that sorted thankfully. Pain in the posterior it was.

 

[Chiletrek]

Hello:
I am very glad you didn't have much damage at all , that is a relief.

And also good luck and keep it up with your projects! .

 

[MrVulcan]

Another set of apologies for delays in getting the importer ready for everyone. I inadvertently started work on another urgent project.

Faced with another bug that was crashing things on load, decided that it was time to just write a proper debugger for Armada. Odf syntax and things like missing quotes, missing files (wav, odf, sod, tga), or even hardpoints works great already. All that needs writing now is a way to check for missing sprites (stuff in sprite files like emitters, sprite nodes, texture refs and animations), and a quick check for AI file syntax.

Btw, I should mention that this checks the WHOLE build structure (starting from races.odf, or from techlvl.odf, or just whatever is in the addon folder). Running the debugger produces a logfile with a list of all errors and their locations.

Trying to maker the debugger expandable to allow for changes in odf commands and the overall structure of the files (ie, fleet ops style with mod folders). I shall be making a more detailed post about this as things get closer to completion.

Cheers, and thanks for your interest

edit: added contents of the logfile (sample):
E# error code
L# line number within the file, if applicable
C# column number within the line, if applicable

Armada Debug Utility LOG. Date: 06-Mar-2013 12:59:25

ErrType: E#   L#   C#  File: || Notes || Caller Stack
 Notice: 31   0    0   wblank.sod:CheckSOD:Material = "stdblack" || Lighting Material Not Defined in "material.sod" || addon
Warning: 19  51    0   gfdefb1.odf: fireSound="swphas1.wav"::wav || Missing WAV File || gfdefb1.odf <- fedbat2.odf <- addon
Warning: 19  33    0   growarp1.odf: fireSound="zzfwarp.wav"::wav || Missing WAV File || growarp1.odf <- robat2.odf <- addon
Warning: 19  29    0   gbtrac1.odf: fireSound="zbtrac.wav"::wav || Missing WAV File || gbtrac1.odf <- borcube1.odf <- addon
Warning: 19  23    0   gftemp1.odf: fireSound="swphas1.wav"::wav || Missing WAV File || gftemp1.odf <- fedsco1.odf <- addon
 Notice: 21  16    0   mneb1.odf: ScaleSOD=1.6 || Inconsistent String Case || mneb1.odf <- addon
 Notice: 21  16    0   mneb2a.odf: ScaleSOD=1.25 || Inconsistent String Case || mneb2a.odf <- addon
 Notice: 21  16    0   mneb2b.odf: ScaleSOD=1.25 || Inconsistent String Case || mneb2b.odf <- addon
Warning: 33   0    0   fedmine.sod:CheckSOD:Nodes = "hp09" "hp10" "hp11" "hp12" "hp13" "hp14" "hp15" "hp09" || Missing Hardpoints || fedmine.odf <- fedcon2.odf <- fedout.odf <- fedcon1.odf <- fedbase.odf <- addon
  Error: 13   1    0   p_tur.odf: impulseSpeed=0.0001::int || Expected an Integer || p_tur.odf <- c_turm.odf <- fedtur2.odf <- fedcon2.odf <- fedout.odf <- fedcon1.odf <- fedbase.odf <- addon
  Error: 13  32    0   gfminef2.odf: scaleCount=0.3::int || Expected an Integer || gfminef2.odf <- gfminef1.odf <- fedR1.odf <- fedrefit.odf <- fedcon2.odf <- fedout.odf <- fedcon1.odf <- fedbase.odf <- addon
Warning: 19  52    0   gfpsprd1.odf: fireSound="zzfphsrd.wav"::wav || Missing WAV File || gfpsprd1.odf <- fedR3.odf <- fedrefit.odf <- fedcon2.odf <- fedout.odf <- fedcon1.odf <- fedbase.odf <- addon
Warning: 11  53    0   fedrefit.odf: eventShipConstructionBegin="FTrefitShipConstructionBegin" || Unknown Command || fedrefit.odf <- fedcon2.odf <- fedout.odf <- fedcon1.odf <- fedbase.odf <- addon
 Notice: 31   0    0   feddread.sod:CheckSOD:Material = "fbat5h3" || Lighting Material Not Defined in "material.sod" || feddread.odf <- fedyard3.odf <- fedcon1.odf <- fedbase.odf <- addon
 Notice: 31   0    0   feddread.sod:CheckSOD:Material = "fbat5h2" || Lighting Material Not Defined in "material.sod" || feddread.odf <- fedyard3.odf <- fedcon1.odf <- fedbase.odf <- addon
Warning: 33   0    0   feddread.sod:CheckSOD:Nodes = "hp09" "hp10" "hp11" "hp12" "hp13" "hp14"  || Missing Hardpoints || feddread.odf <- fedyard3.odf <- fedcon1.odf <- fedbase.odf <- addon
Warning: 19  33    0   gkwarp1.odf: fireSound="zzfwarp.wav"::wav || Missing WAV File || gkwarp1.odf <- klgharv.odf <- klgbase1.odf <- klgcons.odf <- fedbase.odf <- addon
Warning: 19  51    0   gkparc1.odf: fireSound="swphas1.wav"::wav || Missing WAV File || gkparc1.odf <- klgdes1.odf <- klgyard1.odf <- klgcons.odf <- fedbase.odf <- addon
Warning: 11  46    0   mionstm.odf: avioidanceClass=10 || Unknown Command || mionstm.odf <- gkions2.odf <- gkions1.odf <- klgsci2.odf <- klgyard2.odf <- klgcons.odf <- fedbase.odf <- addon
Warning: 33   0    0   klgbase2.sod:CheckSOD:Nodes = "hp22" "hp23" "hp24" "hp25" "hp35" "hp36" "hp37" "hp22" "hp23" "hp24" "hp25" || Missing Hardpoints || klgbase2.odf <- klgcons.odf <- fedbase.odf <- addon
Warning: 33   0    0   romine.sod:CheckSOD:Nodes = "hp12" "hp13" "hp12" "hp13" "hp12"  "hp13" "hp12" "hp13" "hp12" "hp13" || Missing Hardpoints || romine.odf <- rocon1.odf <- robase.odf <- addon
Warning: 17  47    0   ropd2.odf: Object Requires Geometry || Missing SOD File || ropd2.odf <- rores1.odf <- rocon1.odf <- robase.odf <- addon
Warning: 17  47    0   ropd3.odf: Object Requires Geometry || Missing SOD File || ropd3.odf <- rores1.odf <- rocon1.odf <- robase.odf <- addon
Warning: 17  47    0   ropd4.odf: Object Requires Geometry || Missing SOD File || ropd4.odf <- rores1.odf <- rocon1.odf <- robase.odf <- addon
Warning: 17  47    0   ropd5.odf: Object Requires Geometry || Missing SOD File || ropd5.odf <- rores1.odf <- rocon1.odf <- robase.odf <- addon
Warning: 17  47    0   ropd6.odf: Object Requires Geometry || Missing SOD File || ropd6.odf <- rores1.odf <- rocon1.odf <- robase.odf <- addon
Warning: 17  47    0   ropd7.odf: Object Requires Geometry || Missing SOD File || ropd7.odf <- rores1.odf <- rocon1.odf <- robase.odf <- addon
Warning: 17  47    0   ropd8.odf: Object Requires Geometry || Missing SOD File || ropd8.odf <- rores1.odf <- rocon1.odf <- robase.odf <- addon
Warning: 11  50    0   gromyo2.odf: xplGround="xmslgnd" || Unknown Command || gromyo2.odf <- gromyo1.odf <- rosco1.odf <- royard1.odf <- rocon1.odf <- robase.odf <- addon
Warning: 11  51    0   gromyo2.odf: xplVehicle="xmslcar" || Unknown Command || gromyo2.odf <- gromyo1.odf <- rosco1.odf <- royard1.odf <- rocon1.odf <- robase.odf <- addon
Warning: 11  52    0   gromyo2.odf: xplBuilding="xmslbld" || Unknown Command || gromyo2.odf <- gromyo1.odf <- rosco1.odf <- royard1.odf <- rocon1.odf <- robase.odf <- addon
Warning: 33   0    0   rores2.sod:CheckSOD:Nodes = "hp14" "hp15" "hp17" "hp14" "hp15" "hp17"  "hp14" "hp15" "hp17" || Missing Hardpoints || rores2.odf <- rocon1.odf <- robase.odf <- addon
Warning: 33   0    0   rotur1.sod:CheckSOD:Nodes =  "hp11" "hp12" "hp13" "hp11" "hp12" "hp13"  "hp12" "hp13" "hp11" "hp12" "hp13" || Missing Hardpoints || rotur1.odf <- rocon1.odf <- robase.odf <- addon
Warning: 33   0    0   rotur2.sod:CheckSOD:Nodes = "hp11" "hp12" "hp13" "hp14" "hp11" "hp12" "hp12" "hp13" "hp14" "hp11" "hp12" "hp13" "hp14" || Missing Hardpoints || rotur2.odf <- rocon1.odf <- robase.odf <- addon
Warning: 33   0    0   seryard1.sod:CheckSOD:Nodes = "hp012" "hp014" || Missing Hardpoints || seryard1.odf <- serconst.odf <- serbase.odf <- addon
Warning: 33   0    0   seryard2.sod:CheckSOD:Nodes = "ph07" "ph08" || Missing Hardpoints || seryard2.odf <- serconst.odf <- serbase.odf <- addon
Warning: 33   0    0   remine.sod:CheckSOD:Nodes = "hp13" "hp13" "hp13" "hp13" "hp13" "hp13" "hp13" || Missing Hardpoints || remine.odf <- recon.odf <- addon
Warning: 33   0    0   reres1.sod:CheckSOD:Nodes = "hp14" "hp15" "hp17" "hp18" "hp14" "hp15" "hp17" "hp18" "hp14" "hp15" "hp17" "hp18" || Missing Hardpoints || reres1.odf <- recon.odf <- addon
Warning: 18   8    0   gbbmt3.odf: texture="wborgbmt1"::tga || Missing TGA File || gbbmt3.odf <- gbbmt2.odf <- addon
Warning: 33   0    0   borsph1.sod:CheckSOD:Nodes = "hp16" || Missing Hardpoints || gbtrch5.odf <- gbtrch4.odf <- addon
Warning: 19  33    0   grewarp1.odf: fireSound="zzfwarp.wav"::wav || Missing WAV File || addon
Warning: 19  51    0   grocpbm1.odf: fireSound="swphas1.wav"::wav || Missing WAV File || addon
Warning: 17   8    0   mupeg.odf: baseName="muorb"::sod || Missing SOD File || addon
Warning: 19  29    0   wtphFCC1.odf: fireSound="zwtphas1.wav"::wav || Missing WAV File || wtphFCC1.odf <- tholian1.odf <- addon

 

[Dominus_Noctis]

Looks nice, would definitely be handy

 

[CABAL]

That may be the single most useful tool anybody has made for Armada. Not needing to trawl a dozen different files to find where I made a typo will be fantastic.

 

[Terradyhne]

Another set of apologies for delays in getting the importer ready for everyone. I inadvertently started work on another urgent project.

Faced with another bug that was crashing things on load, decided that it was time to just write a proper debugger for Armada. Odf syntax and things like missing quotes, missing files (wav, odf, sod, tga), or even hardpoints works great already. All that needs writing now is a way to check for missing sprites (stuff in sprite files like emitters, sprite nodes, texture refs and animations), and a quick check for AI file syntax.

Btw, I should mention that this checks the WHOLE build structure (starting from races.odf, or from techlvl.odf, or just whatever is in the addon folder). Running the debugger produces a logfile with a list of all errors and their locations.

Trying to maker the debugger expandable to allow for changes in odf commands and the overall structure of the files (ie, fleet ops style with mod folders). I shall be making a more detailed post about this as things get closer to completion.

Cheers, and thanks for your interest

that Debugger would make it possible to get my own modded A2 working in Fleetops mod, as i found out that there are some missing files are causing the errors with it, that cause nor problems with standard A2 and patch.

another question to your max Armada importer. did you intend to make it import the animation in the SOD as well? I wanted to remake those space creatures from A1, in higher poly but remaking the animation of their tentacles would be a real pain.

 

[Starfox1701]

That is great stuff , many thanks

 

[Blade]

looks good keep up the great work

 

[MrVulcan]

The intent is to check the file syntax, and for any missing files/references. If there is a logic error, like a value outside of expected range, or a command missing that does not have a default value, the debugger will not be able to pick that up. There is a check for missing classlabels, however.

At some point later, I may include something to verify that values are within proper range, but good old beta testing for logic just can't be replaced me thinks..

I think the vast majority of bugs fall within the categories of what the debugger is able to check. Hoping to have the sprites part finished today.

As for animations, that would be a yes. Importer reads the animations and converts the raw key frames to something manageable in 3dsmax. Editing the imported animations will probably become a new at form though ;-) The formats for max and armada animations are not one to one, so it could become ugly. However, import --> export preserves the detail in animations.

 

[Blade]

sounds interesting cant wait to try this out