Cross Canon Tech Debate

[Kosh Naranek]

Well, so as to clear the original thread from this off-topic discussion, I've moved it here.

Just to finish this, hope you don't mind:

Well, if its alright with Majestic, why don't we just use this thread from now on? Provided all forum rules are followed of course.

So, the smart missiels and such doesn't count? You said your ship was the most powerful one, so I had to show you that your ost powerful weapons are def. not the most powerful in the fleet.

Huh? I don't know what you mean by 'smart missiles'. If you're referring to the ones from Andromeda, those are basically just warheads with engines that can track a target as regular Andromeda ordinance are KEVs.

As for the power of the Shai'Halud...*points to how just the FTL drive can be used as an anti-fleet weapon*.

Every time they found a holed out planet, like in "Best of Both Worlds". The Borg only cuts out the technology they want, and thus doesn't bither with the rest of the planet, that is, if it's not a machine planet or an extrem threat.

Technically, that's not 'cutting up a planet' as you mentioned. That was just scooping up a colony or outpost with a tractor beam.

AND it was an enemy. The Shadow Death Cloud was also a last resort.

The Death Cloud wasn't a last resort, neither was the Vorlon Planet Killer. Both were used, in canon, as first strike weapons against worlds friendly to the other side. To cite an example, Centauri Prime almost was destroyed by a Vorlon Planet Killer due to the Shadow influence that had controlled the previous government that had just been eliminated.

But they blew up a planet anyway, and you're acting like it's only in B5 a planet gets blown up.

On a common basis, yep, B5's the one for that. In fact, back when the Vorlons and Shadows went at each other tooth-and-claw, before they decided to use 'pawns', entire civilizations were destroyed, entire species went extinct.

It's been theorized that the Shadow Battlecrab can do it, it has never been shown. And since the Borg cutting beam is of the same type (just different color), the Shadow Battlecrabs can't be more powerful than Borg Cubes.

First off, they aren't the same in any way. The Borg Cutting Beam, like the majority of canon Star Trek 'beam' weapons is a particle beam weapon. The Shadow Death Ray, as its informally known, is a shunt of pure interdimensional energy straight out of Hyperspace.

As for how powerful First One level weapons, read these:

Weapons: http://www.b5tech.com/science/weapons/deathray/deathray.html
Defenses: http://www.b5tech.com/science/weapons/deathray/shields.htm
Conclusion: http://www.b5tech.com/science/weapons/deathray/concl.htm

As you can see, the weapons output is around 1 million Terawatts and armor/shield strength is over 1.38 million Terajoules.

And the Borg Cubes has so strong hull that it is compared to be as tough to destrouy as a moon.

Cite your source please.

Check above there I mentioned Cubes.

I noticed.

The Centauri Warship.

What class? A Vorcan, I doubt it, I seriously doubt it. A Primus, now that's more likely to do heavy damage if its equipped with a mass-driver (which they use to fling KEVs at planets at c-frac speeds).

Ok, this is gettin annoying . Both ships are strong but both can be destroyed with the right methods !

First off, we're talking Shadows vs Borg, not my Shai'Halud vs a Borg Cube. Secondly, you are correct in that both can be taken out with the right tactics.

The cubes dont use shields very often, there hull adapts to the weaponry and regenerates but they are very weak to transporter attacks ( Beaming in warheads ! ) and there troops are strong but we each have different weapons so they are weaker if we work together . The borg can go to transwarp instantly meaning quick escapes if needed and they have a large arsenal of weaponry ( Cutting beams , Grav torpedo's and Adaption beams )

Actually, ever Voyager era Borg ship was equipped with shields, which they used (hence why people just didn't beam on and off at well (I cite the episode where they find the Borg kids as an example)).

The warlock hasnt any shielding and has thick armor, meaning the borg can beam in troops without having to deal with the shield grid ! ( Meaning that they can board you without any problems ! ) . Your crew is trained and you have lots of them but the borg will still adapt and assimilate . Your FTL drive will open the vortex meaning you have a slower escape than the rest but you do have the weaponry to fight back

First, right. Second, in regards to the FTL, well, all I have to do is open the hyperspatial vortex on or inside the Cube...insta pwnage.

Kosh, your ship would deal heavy damage to the cube but she would be lost and the cube would regenerate the damage . Thats how i see a fight between them and thats how it would happen . Both ships have heavy weaponry but the borgs armor and the troops would spell doom for the Shai' Halud , Your not the god of this fleet and you may have alot of weaponry but your weak to transporter attacks ( Meaning i could beam a nuke onboard and you couldnt do anything ! ) . Stop this crap about your ship being so mighty , im gettin sick of hearing it !

Once again, I provide this canon derived essay for perusal:

http://www.b5tech.com/science/weapons/particlebeam/particlebeam.html

That explains the fact that the original G.O.D. cannons that the ones my ship has are based on carried a fire power of 2.4 million Terawatts. I doubt a Cube can regenerate from being made into swiss cheese.

Yes lets not get into the who has the better ship debate again. Thats one of the major concerns I had when restarting Crossovers again. Its a problem very few RPG's have, that is due to the nature of this RPG.

Hence why I'm trying to avoid such discussion. I made this thread as a place where we can debate the various canon techs, not our RPG ships, peacefully and according to the forum rules without any connection to any RPG.

We all have strengths and we all have weakness. Lets just accept that and more on. We are all on the same side here, part of the Alliance so in the grand scheme of things it should not matter if ship A could defeat ship B, as it wouldn't happen in any case.

Agreed.



Now, if its alright with you, Majestic, I'm willing to continue this little debate concerning alernate canon's techs.

 

[Majestic]

I have no problems as long as no one turns it into a flame, like the classic Trek vs Wars argument.

 

[Kosh Naranek]

I have no problems as long as no one turns it into a flame, like the classic Trek vs Wars argument.

You have my word of honor that I will do my best to try to steer it away from any such paths, Majestic.

 

[Creed]

can i suggest a few simple (voluntary) rules...

1. explicitly no mention of ships being used in the crossover game (preferably no mention of even the same classes of ships)

2. Parliamentary style usage of pronouns... No referring to any member by name, and no use of 'i' or 'you' (so a writer instead of saying 'you are wrong' would say soemting along the lines of... 'the argument that xx happens is wrong'' and would then naturally go on to provide an explanation of why..)

3. a recognition from all parties that the technologies they are talking about are not meant to be directly comparable, that this is an effort for interest's sake not out of any expectation of one-up manship?

the idea is to keep the discussion impersonal and prevent it from becoming about any individual ship/ genre against another.

I think we'd all recognise that, especially in sci-fi, even the most indomitable looking tech is always beatable by a single hero with a good writer behind him, (that's why they're the hero) so the arguments have to be generic and based on canon technology and are never going to be the whole story... just a best guess.

 

[Borg_Queen]

I agree, Creed. I shall look for all references, but my facts have always been canon.

 

[Paul]

This is gonna turn into a war no matter what , i honestly cant see away around this

G.O.D cannons , like i sayed before . They are powerful but not nearly aspowerful as stated ( They are the same type as G.O.D defence sat's but due to the recent ship intro they would be much weaker and would have massive power requirments , Also the G.O.D cannons cant destroy a planet like you originally claimed . Shoot em and its lights out for 2 miniutes ) . Dont start this about you cannons again because its gettin REAL old !

That vortex , you might destroy it or throw it into faster FTL . Some ships might be destroyed in your FTL vortex but others would survive at be in a higher FTL speed

Borg cutting beams arent partical , they are high end plasma beams that slice into the hull or surface of any target . It can slice into a federation hull with no trouble at all ( As shown when the borg first appeared ) but armored hulls might take abit longer but its still possible

Borgs hull strength ? , Sources include the Battle of Worf 359 and the Battle of sector 001 ( Both had federation fleets attack a single cube and the cube made it to earth both times ! ) . The borg hull regenerates all damage ( Both external and Internal ) so she can stay in a fight for much longer . Only tatic against this is a combined attack on 1 spot that gives the borg no time to regenerate

I honestly cant see why this has begun again , its been resolved 2 times afterall

 

[Syf]

Ok, I am going to make a note, not a SINGLE n00b, flame, Trolling, or Spamming will be tolerated. I will personally shut down this debate if the forum rules are not followed to the letter here!

Just a note to remind people, I am spelling out a few things here -

NO n00bs!
What is a “n00b�
A “n00b†is someone who claims to know everything there is to know about said subject or that they are the best at it. n00bs WILL be punished, upto a full BAN!

NO trolls!
What is a “troll�
A “troll†is a poster that really serves no purpose than to get a strong negative reaction out of other forum members. Although there are forum members who may seem like they are trolls; that is not always the case. Just because a forum member posts something that others may not agree with does not mean that they are a troll. A troll continually attempts to make other forum members angry. The most important thing to know about a troll is not to “feed†them as trolls usually try to make other forum members angry for amusement, and an easy way to make them quit is not to react. If you see forum members "Trolling" or “feeding†trolls please report any such posts to the moderators so the thread can be dealt with accordingly. Trolling will get you one thing, BANNED!

NO Flaming!
What is a “flame�
A flame is a post that is made to attack another forum member, usually based on the content of that post made by that other forum member. Please refrain from flaming another user, and if you see a flame please report it. ALL members flaming other members will be punished!

No Flame War!
What is a “flame war�
A flame war is a series of users flaming each other. These are more often than not instigated by trolls, and as such can usually be averted by not participating in them. ALL members guilty of participating in a flame war will be punished!

AND NO SPAM!
What is “spam�
The definition of spam is quite flexible. Basically it is defined as a post made for the sole purpose of boosting one’s Community User Level, although there are kinds of posts that are deemed spam. These include (but are not limited to):
# Posting advertisements
# Posting the same thing multiple times
# Posting excessive white space so the post takes up unnecessary vertical space.
# Posting long character strings that destroy the forum's formatting and requires scrolling horizontally.
# Posting unrelated links
# Posting hoax messages
# Posting a message that has no relevance to the thread it was posted in.
SPAM will get you one thing, BANNED!

Now that I have made this clear, please continue this debate and remember, the STAFF are watching.

 

[Kosh Naranek]

@Creed: Agreed.

@BQ: Agreed. As an expansion of what you said, do you think we should only bring up citeable material using sources like those I've listed in the Resource Link List thread, though taking some, like the Wikis, with some grain of salt?

@Paul: That essay I linked to is canon derived. The author used screen captures and dialouge mixed with some real life hard science to come up with those numbers. And that was just for the orbital defense version used at the time.

http://efni.org/weapon.htm

The above link lists and describes pretty much all B5 tech weapons possible for Earthforce ships. First up are the heavy particle canons, aka the G.O.D. cannons. According to that work, the satellites use Mk IIs, IIIs, and IVs (in the latest version) while Warlocks are equipped with Mk Vs (Mk IVs in the prototypes).

The most powerful weapons utilized by the Earthforce are the Earthforce Arsenals AEGIS Heavy Particle G.O.D. cannons.
G.O.D. is the acronymous for Global Orbital Defence, because the first incarnations of this weapon, the Mk II and Mk III were conceived for the Global Orbital Defence Satellites, a powerful network of heavy satellites, placed around the Earth, and conceived early after the end of the Earth-Minbari War; the Mk I was an experimental model for the cannons of the satellites, while the MkIV, developed for the "battlemaster project", was the workbench for the shipborne family, that saw the service with the Warlock Heavy Destroyers.
The origin of the concept is very obvious: a weapon system able to avoid another battle of the Line. Beyond the batteries of missiles and the defensive weapons, the main offensive arm of the large G.O.D. satellites was a weapon "able to destroy a Sharlin Cruiser with a single shot, at ranges exceeding the standard range of the Minbari main beam weapons". Even if the range requirement was just accomplished, the Earthforce Arsenals, the "weapon arm" of the EFRAD, went well beyond the requirements regards to the power of the weapon, as can be seen in the attached technical Data. The G.O.D. cannon is a complex weapon, a large linear particle accelerator fed by a battery of Synchrothrons (accumulation rings) See technical schematics .
The heavy particles (cesium nuclei) are accumulated and accelerated in the primary accumulation rings, until the buildup of a discharge is completed. Then the particles of all the accumulation rings are released in a collector an driven in the barrell of the weapon, that is a linear accelerator able to increase the speed/energy of the particles to relativistic levels and drive them against the target: the concept is very classic, but the technologies employed are very advanced, mainly in the magnetic fields generators and in the control of the particle stream.

The early models of G.O.D. cannons had three large accumulation rings, but the progress in the synchronization of the primary feeders, the devices that drive the particle streams from the accumulation rings to the collector, enabled to build weapons with an elongated design like the Mk V, that allowed this weapon to be installed in the hull of a ship, the Warlock class destroyers, giving to the Earth ships a firepower never experienced before, and up to the long ranges. The drawbacks of the G.O.D. cannons are the low rate of fire and the dimensions, that imposes a spinal installation.

The accumulative working principle, yet applied in the Omega heavy particle/pulse cannons, allows a peak power that can be enormously higher than the average power used to feed the weapon, and is this capability to operate a "buildup" of the discharge, in addiction to the long barrell of the second stage accelerator, is the technology that gives to the G.O.D. cannons their impressive destructive power: to give an idea, can be taken as reference the most infamous beam weapon in standard use in an ISA Navy, the "Nur'nil'bok" ("lone sword"), the main bow beam of the Minbari Sharlin Warcruisers. This exceptional (and deadly) weapon has a core diameter of 10 meters, and a power output of more than 7300 Terawatts in continuous mode, and this means that even the power input must be the same.
The Aegis Mk V of the Warlocks has a maximum power input of 2400 Terawatts, about twice a Raytheon OMEGA cannon, but a maximum discharge, with a buildup time of 30" and a discharge time of 1", has an instantaneous power output of 75000 Terawatts: this means that, even with a low rate of fire, the peak power on the target is more than ten times the power of a Sharlin, while the enormous Mk X of the Tillmans (45 Megatons/discharge) and Mk XIII of the Centurions (65 Megatons/discharge) are weapons with a power level close or eventually superior respect to the weapons used by some of the First Ones ships, like the Shadow battlecrabs (in fact the aegis Mk V has yet a peak power that is superior to a Shadow battlecrab beam, even if a battlecrab can shoot continuously).
This "overkill" capability has a simple consequence: there is no defence. None of the ship of the Younger Races can survive this power, and even many "Ancients" could find nearly impossible to oppose an attack brought on with a G.O.D. cannon.

Here is a link to an image that shows the parts of a B5 particle weapon of the AEGIS series (like the G.O.D. cannon):

http://efni.org/Images/weapons/GOD2.htm

As for the Borg, well, like Creed said, episodes out there exist where such happens. Its all about putting the foiler for the hero of the day up to the peak so the fall is oh so much more sweet. Wolf 359 was to establish that Federation technology at the time wasn't enough to take on the Borg. Sector 001 (ie, First Contact), as I recall, ended when the fleet all fired on the Cube after the Enterprise-E, aka the hero of the day, showed up. In my honest opinion, the Borg in Voyager were more true to being consistant and not some uber villian of the week like the aforementioned TNG and FC Cubes.

As for Borg Cubes, here's a link to a site where the creator used canon derived info to make stats for it:

http://www.ditl.org/hedship.php?brgcube

In regards to Borg cutting beams, please cite your source.

@Syf: Agreed and understood.

 

[Syf]

I figure all members will agree with my notes/warning. But anyone thinking different, try me and find out.

Topic related:

On a personal view, I have always wondered, if compared right, which weapons are stronger. I look forward to any links you guys post to relevent sources to prove your debate.

General LINKING note:
But remember, do not post links to sites that are forums, unless they are affiliated with MSFC. Non-forum sites that have no spam/malware/unwanted pop-ups/pop-unders embeded are for the most part exceptable. If you are not sure, feel free to PM one of us Admins about any possible or questionable sites as sources/resources/references. We will be happy to rule on the matter. It's better to do that, than risk a post being edited or deleted.

 

[Borg_Queen]

@BQ: Agreed. As an expansion of what you said, do you think we should only bring up citeable material using sources like those I've listed in the Resource Link List thread, though taking some, like the Wikis, with some grain of salt?

Understood, but if that spesific wiki has reference links to an episode or movie it is completelly canon.

Syf, I have sent you three links. I will be looking for more links on the matter if these links can't be used.

Links:

http://www.sttff.net/borg.html

http://www.stfederation.org/lcars/ships/BorgCube.htm

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Cutting_beam
This one is maybe the best as even if it's a wiki, it's canon. Just see their references.

The other two was for the vessel in it's self. And I agree with Kosh's link to a Borg Cube as that is what I use as reference as well.


I have added this link because it shows Borg Cube tactics:

http://www.st-intelligence.com/ship_database/fed/cube.php

If you need any more about the Borg cutting beam, please ask.

 

[Syf]

I have looked at them, they are fine.

If the site has a forum connected to it, then I would want staff to look into it. If they are resource only, then by all means. As long as it doesn't try to download anything to the viewers, etc. So, any questionable sites need to be looked at by staff for a decision.

 

[Kosh Naranek]

Understood, but if that spesific wiki has reference links to an episode or movie it is completelly canon.

Understood and agreed. I know that there are some good Wiki articles out there, but I also know how easy they are to edit, so I tend to judge them on an individual basis each time.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Cutting_beam
This one is maybe the best as even if it's a wiki, it's canon. Just see their references.

If you need any more about the Borg cutting beam, please ask.

Is it a plasma weapon, LASER, MASER, disrupter, phaser, other particle beam weapon, or something else?

 

[Borg_Queen]

Is it a plasma weapon, LASER, MASER, disrupter, phaser, other particle beam weapon, or something else?

I will look for more links, but I believe to have read one place (and heard in an episode) that it's plasma. At least this link shows it's a high end weapon which do easily cut big holes in planets.

 

[Kosh Naranek]

As for the Shadow Death Cloud, aka the Storm class planet killer, this link describes how it operates:

http://www.b5tech.com/shadows/shadowships/shadowcloud.html

 

[Majestic]

This is gonna turn into a war no matter what , i honestly cant see away around this.

I'm affraid you may be right.

Just a note to remind people, I am spelling out a few things here -

NO n00bs!
What is a “n00b�
A “n00b†is someone who claims to know everything there is to know about said subject or that they are the best at it. n00bs WILL be punished, upto a full BAN!

NO trolls!
What is a “troll�
A “troll†is a poster that really serves no purpose than to get a strong negative reaction out of other forum members. Although there are forum members who may seem like they are trolls; that is not always the case. Just because a forum member posts something that others may not agree with does not mean that they are a troll. A troll continually attempts to make other forum members angry. The most important thing to know about a troll is not to “feed†them as trolls usually try to make other forum members angry for amusement, and an easy way to make them quit is not to react. If you see forum members "Trolling" or “feeding†trolls please report any such posts to the moderators so the thread can be dealt with accordingly. Trolling will get you one thing, BANNED!

NO Flaming!
What is a “flame�
A flame is a post that is made to attack another forum member, usually based on the content of that post made by that other forum member. Please refrain from flaming another user, and if you see a flame please report it. ALL members flaming other members will be punished!

No Flame War!
What is a “flame war�
A flame war is a series of users flaming each other. These are more often than not instigated by trolls, and as such can usually be averted by not participating in them. ALL members guilty of participating in a flame war will be punished!

AND NO SPAM!
What is “spam�
The definition of spam is quite flexible. Basically it is defined as a post made for the sole purpose of boosting one’s Community User Level, although there are kinds of posts that are deemed spam. These include (but are not limited to):
# Posting advertisements
# Posting the same thing multiple times
# Posting excessive white space so the post takes up unnecessary vertical space.
# Posting long character strings that destroy the forum's formatting and requires scrolling horizontally.
# Posting unrelated links
# Posting hoax messages
# Posting a message that has no relevance to the thread it was posted in.

I am going to have to add those descriptions to the MSFC FAQ.

General LINKING note:
But remember, do not post links to sites that are forums, unless they are affiliated with MSFC. Non-forum sites that have no spam/malware/unwanted pop-ups/pop-unders embeded are for the most part exceptable. If you are not sure, feel free to PM one of us Admins about any possible or questionable sites as sources/resources/references. We will be happy to rule on the matter. It's better to do that, than risk a post being edited or deleted.

Anyone who is a member here should be well aware of this, it's MSFC number one rule and one of the only things that could get a member an instant ban. Ie, Posting Advertisements/Links.

---

Okay everyone I have gotten a few complaints from a few people on this subject. Some are angry and some are upset either way its causing problems for some members so I am now officially closing this topic and subject. I don't want to see this reappearing again, when a topic/subject is closed it stays closed.

I personally would of liked to see this continue as long as it wasn't related to Crossovers which to me and some others seems it may be.

Until things settle down and this topic can be discussed without any problems it is closed.