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[WIP] The Wastelands

Terra_Inc

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Hello:
I can imagine it is satisfying, but balancing can be veeeery tricky to get right o__O .
Yeah, no kidding. :sweat:

That sounds right to me about the Cardassians, just don't forget that stock-A2 is the only place where a Galor can defeat a Galaxy Class :lol2:.
Yeah, true. :) Fortunately, there will be no Galaxy in the Wastelands. And I'm not sure about the Galor - it's an iconic design, but I'd rather not have many of those in the game. It's supposed to be a rough backwater region where mining companies fight each other for control of resources.

While I'm at it, let me talk about aesthetics a bit. If you look at some of the screenies I've been posting, you'll notice a trend. No Galaxy or Sovereign, no Negh'var, no D'deridex. The vast majority of classics are missing. Instead, there are unusual, rarely seen designs. This is fully intentional. You wouldn't see cutting-edge explorers and frontline units being used in a region like the Wastelands. There are phased-out StarFleet designs and corporate workhorses, and it's meant to be the same for most other factions. (The Romulans don't count, since they're border guards, but even they don't get the D'deridex. 8472 is obviously exempt from this as well.)

With that said, there are some classics I most likely won't be able to leave out - the B'rel for example is an iconic ship, but it's so ubiquitous that it makes no sense not to have it. In fact, I'm pretty sure the Klinker AI will try to spam them as best as it can in the early game.
 

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Hello:
I can understand what you mean. But that is one elements that will make your mod so unique, because it is a different scenario for confrontations :thumbsup: .

For the Klingons, while the B'rel is iconic, it is not a battleship but a quick destroyer, so it make sense for them to build them, they would even make far better use for them than the stock game (or even FO) ;) . So B'rels will be great to see, but no Negh'vars since those are front-line ships like the Galaxy or Sovereign.

And well, the 8472 have the ships they have, maybe you can balance them out differently, maybe they cannot open many gates due to the Wastelands.... wastelandsness :lol2: .

Keep it up!
 

CABAL

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I agree that the B'rel makes sense as a Wastelands ship. It originates in the TMP era, like most of the other ships, and it's basically the Klingon Humvee; a rugged multi-purpose vehicle that uses way too much gas. There might even be a slightly less armed civilian version.
 

Terra_Inc

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And well, the 8472 have the ships they have, maybe you can balance them out differently, maybe they cannot open many gates due to the Wastelands.... wastelandsness :lol2: .

Well, they have the same hunger for resources everyone else has.

---

In unrelated news, it appears I've run into a problem. I'm using Midnight Universe, which makes things look great. Unfortunately, I missed a section of the readme that goes like this:
MU readme said:
Raven Night (Nightsoft) & Nanobyte for NanoFX textures

[...]

LICENCE FOR DISTRIBUTION


The mods listed are the property of Nightsoft, Inc., patent pending, and are not to be distributed for profit, sold, bartered, rented, or otherwise used for personal gain without express permission from the owner. All rights are reserved.


Permission is hereby given to all that wish to distribute or alter these mods, as long as the conditions of the readme are met and this license is included in the readme, and appears at the top of the document. The mod must remain proprietary; usage is restricted to SFC, BC, KA and Armada. You must also secure permission from the original author of the mod. If you wish to alter one of the mods in any way, we ask that you contact the original author for permission before you release it to the public. If you do not follow the aforementioned conditions, you will be considered in violation of this user license agreement, and will be subject to legal action. Any and all subsequent alterations or additions to the products are the property of Nightsoft. Nightsoft reserves the right to alter this Licence at any time.

The way I interpret this, I have to go ask Nightsoft for permission to include the NanoFX textures in Wastelands. Or do I misunderstand the licence note?
Right now I'm trying to contact Raven Night through dynaverse to clarify this and ask for permission. He hasn't logged in since '11, but one can always try. If someone has a more up-to-date contact address, please let me know.

If this doesn't work out, I might just have to cut NanoFX material from Wastelands and find some replacements / use stock stuff.
 

Chiletrek

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Hello:
Since you are not releasing this mod for profit, and if you release it with that license included, then it should be fine. Specially since this is still Armada saga of games.

To try to contact the author is always a good idea, I hope you will get a reply, always gbetter to be sure I suppose.
 

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So you'll be having K'tinga's in Wastelands too I'll assume?

You'll be right to use all of Midnight, that clause is in place to avoid people profiting with it so you're good to use it mate.
 

Terra_Inc

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So you'll be having K'tinga's in Wastelands too I'll assume?
A 24th century version of it, yeah. :thumbsup: I haven't decided on a model yet, though. There are several good-looking ones out there. TBH the Klinkers aren't at the top of my todo list right now, since the idea of playable Klinkers is relatively new and I don't have much of a concept for them yet. So picking the right model isn't really urgent.

Also, I'll probably include an actual D-7. Not as a buildable ship, more as a wreck for people to discover. The idea is to reinforce the point that this region has been disputed ever since the Kirk's days, so including some TOS-style wrecks in certain maps would remind people of that. I worked out the back story so that the Avalon stations were abandoned shortly after their construction, when the Connies and D-7s chased each other through the Wastelands. I know that the Avalon stations don't actually have a TOS look, but they are meant to have been cutting edge at the time, so I think it's okay if they look more modern. On the other hand, I might just end up throwing the whole back story out and making up a new one from scratch if that makes no sense...

You'll be right to use all of Midnight, that clause is in place to avoid people profiting with it so you're good to use it mate.
Oh, you think so? See, the part that bothers me is this one: "Permission is hereby given to all that wish to distribute or alter these mods, as long as the conditions of the readme are met and this license is included in the readme, and appears at the top of the document. The mod must remain proprietary; usage is restricted to SFC, BC, KA and Armada. You must also secure permission from the original author of the mod." To me, that says I must ask Nightsoft for permission before reuse.
Anyway, I'll continue to try to reach the guy, but if it doesn't work out I might include the material in Wastelands. We'll see. :-/
 

Rifraf

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Hey Terra, I saw a post by you from 2011 in an old thread about using Aad's Romulan ships and not having the hulls darken or reflect weapon light properly. I know it's been many years, but did you get that sorted?

I added phong lighting to all his models that I used in the Upgrade Project mod and sent him all the SOD's. Just curious if you needed help with any of that anymore?
 

Majestic

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As long as you have tried to contact him, then that is good. We can't be responsible for old emails or inactive members who used to be in the community. Just be sure to credit him and include what he has asked in your readme, then you're good.

Many mods have used Midnight in the past.
 

Terra_Inc

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Hey Terra, I saw a post by you from 2011 in an old thread about using Aad's Romulan ships and not having the hulls darken or reflect weapon light properly. I know it's been many years, but did you get that sorted?

I added phong lighting to all his models that I used in the Upgrade Project mod and sent him all the SOD's. Just curious if you needed help with any of that anymore?
Well, Jet helped me out with a few models I asked him for, but since then many things have changed and I may need some new ones. Do you mind if I use some of the SODs from the Upgrade Project?

As long as you have tried to contact him, then that is good. We can't be responsible for old emails or inactive members who used to be in the community. Just be sure to credit him and include what he has asked in your readme, then you're good.

Many mods have used Midnight in the past.
Yeah, that seems to be the best course of action. Thank you Maj. :thumbsup:
 

Rifraf

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Well, Jet helped me out with a few models I asked him for, but since then many things have changed and I may need some new ones. Do you mind if I use some of the SODs from the Upgrade Project?
I don't mind at all. Aad let me edit/use his SODSs on the condition I send him copies of the edits. I would just double check with him to be sure he doesn't mind.

If you have any questions about my credits/readme just let me know. If you have models in mind I can just send you those if you don't want to download the whole mod too
 

Terra_Inc

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I don't mind at all. Aad let me edit/use his SODSs on the condition I send him copies of the edits. I would just double check with him to be sure he doesn't mind.
Yeah, I'll contact him about that.

If you have any questions about my credits/readme just let me know. If you have models in mind I can just send you those if you don't want to download the whole mod too
Well, I'm probably going to install the whole thing anyway, just because I want to play an A2 full of Aad's work. :D

EDIT: Also, I found some contact info for Raven Night from 2015, so I have a good chance of actually getting in contact with the guy. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
 

Chiletrek

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Hello:
That is indeed good news. Good luck contacting him!.
 

Terra_Inc

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Hello:
That is indeed good news. Good luck contacting him!.
Thanks Chile, I hope I can clear this issue.

In the meantime, here's a short backstory sort of thing I wrote way back in the day, before the hiatus. I changed it around a bit to reflect the changes made to the concept since then. Hope you all enjoy it.

--

The Wastelands, they called it. An utterly lifeless part of Fed space, on the Klingon border. No one dared touch it ever since the years of the Empire-Fed stare-down. Even the eggheads, building their cloud-cuckoo-land, their AVALON stations in the asteroid fields, ran like hell once the D-Seven battlecruisers showed up. But now, with the Dominion War over, the Alpha and Beta quadrants in need of resources, the Wastelands present themselves as a wonderland of dilithium, metals and rare elements. And everyone wants his share. The Cardassians have sent their 3rd Auxiliary Order, the Klingon Empire has sent House Go'rek, and good old Starfleet has struck a deal with the InterSolar mining company.

Right now they're bringing in the Starchasers to clean up the area around ALPHA while the engineering guys check out the old stations. Surprisingly enough, large parts of those oversized rust buckets are still usable. Whatever those eggheads were after back in the Kirk's days, they certainly had money. Those things come with integrated biodomes and fully-stocked research facilities... And the Starchasers, well, the Fleeters 'officially' say they're too old to be of any use, but if you've ever seen one of them blast through an asteroid field at full speed with the twin quadruple torpedo launchers laying a carpet of explosives before that huge hulk of a spaceship, you won't talk about "planned lifetime" and "upgrade cycles" anymore. And I hear that the lunatics at InterSolar's engineering department built a Starchaser II even meaner and deadlier than the Queen of the Wastelands.

One thing is sure: If the Federation wants those resources, they're gonna get them. Nothing short of a major diplomatic screwup or a full-scale invasion can stop us now. My InterSolar colleagues are going to make sure that every microgram of raw dilithium between here and the Klingon Border gets picked up by a mining freighter. And if any pirates dare show up in our claim, well, let's just say the Hunters and Pythons and Starchasers are going to blow them to pieces.

But I'm not convinced it's all about the minerals. You see, supposedly they never built the last AVALON station, ETA. They blame it on those D-Sevens. But what they don't tell you is that the scientists and their construction team simply vanished during the hasty evacuation. No, they were not lost to the Klinks. The Klinks never got that far into the asteroid fields. I read the reports about the wreckage of the rescue ship, the Montblanc, lost with all hands when they sent her to gather up the ETA personnel. Whatever the Fleeters might have told the public, that was not a D-Seven disruptor. But even if they told the truth, why is it that the crew of the Cochrane claimed they saw ETA-Station in 2379?
 

CABAL

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... House Go'rek...
I named that!:excited: Er, anyway...

I like it. I imagine that ETA-Station will be important to the plot. There's plenty of plot threads here and any of them could be expanded to a full campaign with enough time. No mention of the Romulans, though. Is their presence not public knowledge?
 

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A very full depth and interesting backstory mate. Top work. This would make a great movie. :D
 

Chiletrek

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Hello:
That suounds very interesting! and I am sure that ETA station is a key part of all the mess that is coming. You don't need a Dominion War-level event to make a good plot, I can sense something very cool is coming :) .
 

Terra_Inc

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Thanks everyone, happy to hear that you like it. :)
I named that!:excited:
Yes, you did! :thumbsup: In fact, I've made that the official faction/race name. I've decided to replace the race names with the faction names in the game. So instead of selecting "Federation", you'll be selecting "InterSolar Co.", instead of "Klingons", you'll be selecting "House Go'rek", and so on. I think it adds flair.

No mention of the Romulans, though. Is their presence not public knowledge?
They don't openly conduct large-scale mining operations. That would seem un-Romulan to me. The Raptor Guards, an extension of the border patrol, are the main Romulan presence in the Wastelands, and they keep a low profile. They've claimed a few systems for themselves and are keeping an eye on things, but they don't expand much beyond that. In my concept, the Raptor Guards are typically Romulan: Nowhere to be seen if you look for them, but you can always be sure that there's a cloaked Warbird parked just around the corner. Hence, they don't really play a large role in the overall scheme of things.
 

Terra_Inc

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Okay, so I had some thoughts I could use some feedback on. :)

Way back in the day, I planned to do a simple Rock-Paper-Scissors balance. I'm gradually moving away from that idea towards just giving every ship and ship-tier a unique purpose. For example, since speed is an issue in the game due to the distances between your bases and outposts (and since I plan to turn off warp), battleships are pretty much useless as fast-response units because they take for-frakking-ever to get to far-off places. A decent destroyer squad, though less powerful, can move around much faster. It can quickly get out to where it's needed, help defend your mining installations when necessary and rush an undefended enemy outpost before it gets fortified. However, for a proper base assault a destroyer squad is less great because alone it will be crushed by the base defenses. You need something big and powerful to destroy a fortified base. It's the same with cruisers - pick either a fast strike cruiser with less firepower or a slow heavy cruiser with more firepower. Or in the case of carriers, the Python is a destroyer-tier carrier with decent speed, whereas the Starchaser II is a battleship-tier carrier that can resist being pummeled by defenders for a while.

In a more specialized case, the expensive destroyer-tier Sirius has the not-so-great defense of its ship-tier, but packs a lot more torpedos than the other destroyers (being unlocked by the final administrative station). Essentially an expensive glass cannon compared to the more balanced standard destroyers. Another example: The battleship-tier Grace has meagre offensive capabilities, but can support other ships in combat with its medical equipment, allowing the smaller ships to withstand enemy weapon fire a bit longer.

As for the mining freighters, the early-game ones will be cheaper but have less cargo space than the late-game ones. The latter will help you with getting more resources for setting up late-game fleets. However, their defensive capabilities will be more or less the same, meaning late-game freighter losses will hurt you more. It's a simple trade-off, but I think it helps with keeping things interesting.

In terms of inter-faction balance, the Klingons will generally have the best weapons, while the Cardassians are the best at mining. I'm torn between just putting the Feds in as the average faction or emphasizing their unique elements such as access to carriers and late-game Sirius destroyers.

On a somewhat related note, I've decided to just drop the whole concept of research stations. Your construction options are entirely dependent on your infrastructure. For example, the Feds can't build corporate cruisers and industrial mining freighters without setting up the necessary corporate bureaucracy. The Klinkers can't get past their B'rels and K'tingas without seriously investing in their stations. As the building times and resource costs in general are higher than in stock A2, this will slow down things enough to allow distinct early- and late-game phases.
 

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Okay, so I had some thoughts I could use some feedback on. :)

Way back in the day, I planned to do a simple Rock-Paper-Scissors balance. I'm gradually moving away from that idea towards just giving every ship and ship-tier a unique purpose. For example, since speed is an issue in the game due to the distances between your bases and outposts (and since I plan to turn off warp), battleships are pretty much useless as fast-response units because they take for-frakking-ever to get to far-off places. A decent destroyer squad, though less powerful, can move around much faster. It can quickly get out to where it's needed, help defend your mining installations when necessary and rush an undefended enemy outpost before it gets fortified. However, for a proper base assault a destroyer squad is less great because alone it will be crushed by the base defenses. You need something big and powerful to destroy a fortified base. It's the same with cruisers - pick either a fast strike cruiser with less firepower or a slow heavy cruiser with more firepower. Or in the case of carriers, the Python is a destroyer-tier carrier with decent speed, whereas the Starchaser II is a battleship-tier carrier that can resist being pummeled by defenders for a while.

In a more specialized case, the expensive destroyer-tier Sirius has the not-so-great defense of its ship-tier, but packs a lot more torpedos than the other destroyers (being unlocked by the final administrative station). Essentially an expensive glass cannon compared to the more balanced standard destroyers. Another example: The battleship-tier Grace has meagre offensive capabilities, but can support other ships in combat with its medical equipment, allowing the smaller ships to withstand enemy weapon fire a bit longer.

As for the mining freighters, the early-game ones will be cheaper but have less cargo space than the late-game ones. The latter will help you with getting more resources for setting up late-game fleets. However, their defensive capabilities will be more or less the same, meaning late-game freighter losses will hurt you more. It's a simple trade-off, but I think it helps with keeping things interesting.

In terms of inter-faction balance, the Klingons will generally have the best weapons, while the Cardassians are the best at mining. I'm torn between just putting the Feds in as the average faction or emphasizing their unique elements such as access to carriers and late-game Sirius destroyers.

Basically what I am doing with Yesteryears so I highly approve some great ideas.
 

Terra_Inc

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Good to see that people like my ideas, I have no idea through how many balance models I went in the last years. This is finally one I also am satisfied with.

Right now I'm finishing the balancing of my fed side and filling the last gaps in terms of models. I just secured what should be the last permission I need for that part of the mod. Very satisfying to be able to just fire up the game and play a round or two.
 

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Having played Achilles' latest AoW the last couple days I agree with you both. If you think about in general all the heavy research is being done back on your home world safe from the battle. As the player you are here on the front lines trying to win the war so you're trying to make your weapons a tiny bit stronger or your engines put out a tiny bit more power etc.

I love how Achilles has refits as a way to upgrade your ships instead of research per say. I really like where your going with Wastelands Terra_Inc. Keep up the good work. You and Majestic have some really good ideas here for your respective mods.
 

Terra_Inc

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Here's a little update, everyone! I haven't really worked on Wastelands in the last months. Mostly because I have very little time at the moment due to real life work. So, there's not much progress to report on. But there are good news nonetheless. I have finally managed to reach RavenNight, and now have secured official permission to use the full Midnight Universe. That makes me a very happy kitteh!

Next year, I'll go back to working on Wastelands. And then we'll see whether I can finish this thing before we're all headed to the MSFC retirement home...
 

Terra_Inc

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Iä! Iä! Arise, Necrothread!

I started this project almost ten years ago. I still remember making the initial post, as if it was yesterday. Those were the days when the community was still buzzing with activity. We saw model after model, texture after texture, little tweaks and massive TCs. Each new month brought new content to enjoy, and many evenings were spent working on our installs, or making something new and cool. The community's finest modders were hard at work creating wonderful works of art, and there was always a big release just around the corner to look forward to. It was a different time. I was a different person.

Today, the world looks very different. The old sites are mostly either gone, or barely visited. Most of the people have moved on. Just us few folks still hanging out. We celebrate A2's 20th birthday next year.

I finished watching the new Picard series recently. While it was flawed (and I will be posting my opinion in our thread later!), it reminded me that I love this universe, this game and this community. It reminded me of those days, when a new WIP thread post or another file to FTP onto our download server made my day. And of all the people, here and elsewhere, I had the honor to know.

In honor of those days, and those people, I'm bringing this project back. I don't know how long it will take. I don't know how far I can take it. But I'll be giving my best.

So, let's do this. One last time. For old time's sake.

one_last_time.png

"Seize the time... live now! Make now always the most precious time. Now will never come again."
- Jean-Luc Picard

renderTimingPixel.png
 

CptBenSisko

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I soooooo remember playing Wastelands!!! Terra!!! Good to see you buddy!! Seems like with this whole pandemic happening, a lot of people are coming back!


edit: Id be down for helping out anyway that I can!
 

Terra_Inc

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I soooooo remember playing Wastelands!!! Terra!!! Good to see you buddy!! Seems like with this whole pandemic happening, a lot of people are coming back!


edit: Id be down for helping out anyway that I can!

Yeah, having more free time due to the pandemic certainly makes you remember some old obsessions :)

Now, a short progress update. I've mostly worked on fixing whatever bugs and crashes my install already had back in 2015, and started changing this whole thing to a FO mod. Ideally, I'd love to have it as a sub-mod of A2 Classic, but I'm still reading up on how that works.

Once I've figured out what exactly I still need to do, I might reach out to people for help - from what I remember, I have almost all the art assets I need, but there may still be one or two gaps. (Thankfully, we have the wonderful works of the late Aad Moerman, along with those of other prolific modders - without them, making a large-scale mod without modeling skills would be much more difficult.)

I'm also considering automating a lot of the ODF work. I have some ideas how to do that. If it works out, I might upload it here for others to use. No promises, but I really want to try this as it would help a lot with tweaking the mod.

So yeah, if any of this sounds interesting to you folks, keep an eye on this thread. :thumbsup:
 

Rifraf

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That's great news Terra. I always thought this an interesting mod and looked forward to seeing it one day
 

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Aye, the modding buzz is seeing a resurgence lately. It goes without saying our assets are at your disposal, but feel free to ask if you want anything specific!
 

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While I'm starting to put more time into this again (it's the 2nd lockdown here in Germany, and it looks like it's going to last a while - frakking Corona!), I'd like to gauge your interest in the implementation of a full campaign for this project. I'm trying to avoid doing anything boring or stale, and given that there aren't a lot of people left in the community, I'd like to do something innovative that (at least to a few people) would actually be worth digging up ye olde A2 discs for.

So, if people would care for a campaign, I'd stop making more races playable and focus on what's needed for the story. I still have the rough draft of the originally planned campaign, although it will need to be modified a bit to account for all of the ideas and concepts that have changed since then. And I might still complete more playable sides later, if there's sufficient interest.

Also, I more or less have a deadline now, so you may see a few more postings here in the coming months. Time will tell.
 
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