• Hello and welcome to MSFC. We are a small and close knitted community who specialises in modding the game Star Trek Armada 2 and the Fleet Operations modification, however we have an open field for discussing a number of topics including movies, real life events and everything in-between.

    Being such a close community, we do have some restrictions, including all users required to be registered before being able to post as well as all members requiring to have participated in the community for sometime before being able to download our modding files to name the main ones. This is done for both the protection of our members and to encourage new members to get involved with the community. We also require all new registrations to first be authorised by an Administrator and to also have an active and confirmed email account.

    We have a policy of fairness and a non harassment environment, with the staff quick to act on the rare occasion of when this policy is breached. Feel free to register and join our community.

The Battle of Five Armies Debate

CABAL

<< ■ II ▶ >>
Staff member
Administrator
Star Navigator
Rogue AI technocrat
Joined
15 Aug 2009
Messages
3,511
Age
32
Hey, Fox, did you mean to post that in the thread for The Hobbit? This one got split off of that. Or are you saying that The Battle of the Five Armies will look awesome on the big screen? Or am I with Z and don't have a clue what you're talking about?
 

Hellkite

Lord of Death
Staff member
Administrator
Seraphim Build Team
Star Fighter
Joined
23 Apr 2006
Messages
7,636
that makes three of us

should I move it to the Hobbit thread ?
 

Avon

The older I get, the more I forget
Joined
28 Dec 2006
Messages
491
and the other factions may have named it something different, like the Battle of Lonely Mountain or The Battle of Erebor.
If I remember correctly it was called the first battle of Dale.
The second battle coming in the War of the Ring when Sauron finally overuns Dale and Erebor with his Orcs and some Easterling help.

Hellkite said:
The thing is that you need to look at their objectives and group them accordingly to them.

(1) The Men of Esgaroth " Laketown" were fighting for reparations for the losses encored for the lost of homes in the dragon's attack they were also the descendants of the Men of Dale and Dale the pillaged at the same time as the lost of the Dwarven kingdom by the Dragon

(2) Elves of Mirkwood were there because they have given aid to the men of Lake town as were asking for compensation for that efford add to that Thorin's refusal to tell them why he was in their Territory and compounded by his escape

(3) Dain's Dwarves, Thorin's 12 Dwarves the recovery and keeping of their kingdom and its treasurer for themselves

(4) Goblins along with there allies the wolves and bats, began to gather and plan their revenge for The loss of the Great Goblin as well as greed of gold

(5) Eagles arrived just to kill the Goblins like Beorn but the were in a grate numbers unlike Beorn note they may have been the last to arive but they were there of a whole day the battle only lasted 2 day and a night
I still dont see any distiction, as I could easilly add:

(6) The Wargs of Wilderland were enraged by an attack on their Chief by Gandalf and his companions. Forgetting their fued with the nearby woodmen, they marched north and then East towards Erebor, meeting up with Bolg and his Goblins on the way. (remember the Wargs were not there to avenge the death of the Great Goblin, they were there because they had been attacked themselves)
 

Hellkite

Lord of Death
Staff member
Administrator
Seraphim Build Team
Star Fighter
Joined
23 Apr 2006
Messages
7,636
You have a burden of Proof of that

By the way you can"t :p

For I have read both applicable chapters (6 & 17) twice over and over again no were dose it state that in the book

In fact let me Quote the book to the part that is applicable.

“Halt!†cried Gandalf, who appeared suddenly, and stood alone, with arms uplifted, between the advancing dwarves and the ranks awaiting them. “Halt!†he called in a voice like thunder, and his staff blazed forth with a flash like the lightning. “Dread has come upon you all! Alas! it has come more swiftly than I guessed. The Goblins are upon you! Bolg of the North is coming, O Dain! whose father you slew in Moria. Behold! the bats are above his army like a sea of locusts. They ride upon wolves and Wargs are in their train!â€


The key part to this is the words "They ride upon wolves and Wargs are in their train!â€"


Military definition of Train

The aggregation of men, animals, and vehicles which accompany an army or one of its subdivisions, and transport its baggage, ammunition, supplies, and reserve materials of all kinds

In other words in their service of the Goblin army as a subdivision of their forces not a independent stand alone force.

End of story

They are part of the Goblins forces you can not argue it as plain as day in black and white on the printed page :ty:

Game set mach my friend
 
Last edited:

Starfox1701

Master of the Arwing
Warrant Officer
Joined
29 Jan 2008
Messages
2,558
Age
47
The key part to this is the words "They ride upon wolves and Wargs are in their train!â€"

I have to disagree here. The Wargs didn't travel with the goblins; they met up with them. They are also shone to have an indipendent command structure. Also not all the Wargs served as mounts durring the battle. While they may or may nor be a seperate army one thing they deffinitly not part of the Goblin logistics train:naughty:
 

Avon

The older I get, the more I forget
Joined
28 Dec 2006
Messages
491
End of story

They are part of the Goblins forces you can not argue it as plain as day in black and white on the printed page :ty:

Game set mach my friend
How so? Your point is only valid if you ignore all the other Tolkien quotes that I've provided so far. I dont need to argue it as plain as day, in black and white, because Tolkien said it plain as day, on the printed page
and it was called the Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side were the Goblins and the wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves and Men and Dwarves."
In this description he does not mention bats or other parts of the goblin army, like the Bodyguard of Bolg. But he does mention the wild wolves specifically.

At no point does he say:
"and the Eagles" or "and a fifth army that I will mention later"
No. He states the five armies. End of story.

Of course, I think it's entirely possible that Tolkien did this quite deliberately. You are led in to think that you know the 5 armies involved, so you know where all the players are, and how they are progressing in the battle.
The arrival of the Eagles when our heros were close to defeat was clearly meant to be a surprise, so you didn't see it coming.

You could argue that it started out as 'the Battle of Five Armies' at Erebor, but later as the battle progressed and moved south into Dale, it became known as the 'Battle of Dale' (which Tolkien also called it). And by that point further armies like the Eagles had joined in:thumbsup:
 

Hellkite

Lord of Death
Staff member
Administrator
Seraphim Build Team
Star Fighter
Joined
23 Apr 2006
Messages
7,636
The point is that they were part of the Goblin army as one of it subdivisions not a army on there own

and Im not saying they were the Goblin logistics train

But transport units are part of the train any army covers mounts and war dogs,

See any and all supporting unit is part of the train

But to the point of this debate is that there were five army on the field and they were

(1) The Men of Esgaroth " Laketown" were fighting for reparations for the losses encored for the lost of homes in the dragon's attack they were also the descendants of the Men of Dale and Dale the pillaged at the same time as the lost of the Dwarven kingdom by the Dragon

(2) Elves of Mirkwood were there because they have given aid to the men of Lake town as were asking for compensation for that efford add to that Thorin's refusal to tell them why he was in their Territory and compounded by his escape

(3) Dain's Dwarves, Thorin's 12 Dwarves the recovery and keeping of their kingdom and its treasurer for themselves

(4) Goblins along with there allies the wolves and bats, began to gather and plan their revenge for The loss of the Great Goblin as well as greed of gold

(5) Eagles arrived just to kill the Goblins like Beorn but the were in a grate numbers unlike Beorn note they may have been the last to arive but they were there of a whole day the battle only lasted 2 day and a night
 
Last edited:

Hellkite

Lord of Death
Staff member
Administrator
Seraphim Build Team
Star Fighter
Joined
23 Apr 2006
Messages
7,636
But to your Tolkien quotes in to context the story is being told by Bilbo years later when he was writing " There and back again"

See my friend take it in that context. Think battles are named after they are fought not during them I can tell you that from first hand when there going you could care less than a flying fig what it going to be called later on. because wile it going it only as one name that is Hell

As could Tolkien he could tell you that himself as a world war 1 Vet,
 
Last edited:

Adm_Z

Gettin' down and GUI!
Joined
23 Nov 2009
Messages
2,745
I still dont see any distiction, as I could easilly add:

(6) The Wargs of Wilderland were enraged by an attack on their Chief by Gandalf and his companions. Forgetting their fued with the nearby woodmen, they marched north and then East towards Erebor, meeting up with Bolg and his Goblins on the way. (remember the Wargs were not there to avenge the death of the Great Goblin, they were there because they had been attacked themselves)

You see, the wargs met up with the goblins to fight with them against the dwarfs etc. The others did not meet up to fight together, but were actually fighting against each other at the time.

In a way, I think its generally ok to say that there are really only too sides of combatants. You could argue that every army fighting on the same side could be grouped together as one army, however that assumes they are fighting for the same goal. True, vengeance was the goblins goal, and not the wargs, but they both intended to achieve their goals through the same means. The others in the battle were not working together but in the end of the battle.

And like Hellkite said lets look at this in context. Would bilbo have known that the wargs and the goblins etc weren't part of the same army? He knew the others were each their own army because he was on their side, but knew nothing about the other army. And again, recollection of the battle is past tense, meaning when the book was written, he already knew who the contenders would be. Meaning there is no reason for him to leave the eagles out considering they saved the day.
 

Avon

The older I get, the more I forget
Joined
28 Dec 2006
Messages
491
he already knew who the contenders would be. Meaning there is no reason for him to leave the eagles out considering they saved the day.
And yet he indeed did leave them out in his description, as I keep saying.
No-one here has given me any valid explanation for this. Especially if this was meant to be Bilbo recalling the story years later.
You can come up with as many different ways to present your argument as you like, and it has some merit, but you all still keep avoiding the fact that Tolkien said five armies: goblins, wargs, elves, men, and dwarves.

It's almost like you are arguing that Tolkien must be wrong or confused in some way, and you know better.
At this point I shall agree that there are good arguments for both sides, and I respect peoples different points of view. It's an interesting debate, if a little trivial, but I see no way of resolving it any further.
 

Adm_Z

Gettin' down and GUI!
Joined
23 Nov 2009
Messages
2,745
He couldn't simply say, "It was called the battle of four armies...but we changed it to five when the Eagles showed up..." because that is silly and mentioning the eagles before they showed up would spoil the surprise.
 

Hellkite

Lord of Death
Staff member
Administrator
Seraphim Build Team
Star Fighter
Joined
23 Apr 2006
Messages
7,636
Think Bilbo "Tolkien" is telling a story you don't just give the relevant tactical data that is just not entertaining and you know that.

This just you grasping at straws friend Avon
 
Last edited:

Starfox1701

Master of the Arwing
Warrant Officer
Joined
29 Jan 2008
Messages
2,558
Age
47
Then perhaps we should chalk the dicrpencies up to bilbos own inexperiance.
 

Avon

The older I get, the more I forget
Joined
28 Dec 2006
Messages
491
Ok, i'll have one last stab at this, simply because I'm bored and there's nothing on tv;)

Now, I do understand that the word army can sometimes be used in a more general sense to describe any group, but usually when dealing with military groups, the word army is quite specific. And bearing in mind Tolkien was a distinguished language professor, he would surely have known the definition of the word.

The definition of an army.

American Heritage Dictionary:
A large body of people organized and trained for land warfare.

Britannica Concise Encyclopedia:
Large, organized force armed and trained for war, especially on land

Columbia Encyclopedia:
Large armed land force, under regular military control, organization, and discipline

Wikipedia:
An army (from Latin arma "arms, weapons" via Old French armée, "armed" (feminine)), in the broadest sense, is the land-based military of a nation or state

The free dictionary.com:
A large body of people organized and trained for land warfare

Collins English Dictionary:
(Military) the military land forces of a nation

Collins Thesaurus of the English language:
Soldiers, troops, armed force, legions, infantry, military force, land forces, land force,

Webster's New World Dictionary:
A large, organized body of soldiers for waging war, esp. on land

Princeton's Wordnet:
(noun) army, regular army, ground forces
a permanent organization of the military land forces of a nation or state

Kernerman English Learner’s Dictionary:
(noun) army , a land defense force

Cambridge Dictionary Online:
a military force that has the training and equipment to fight on land
 

SciFiFan

MSFC Hunter Vanguard
Staff member
Forum Moderator
Lone Star Hunter
Joined
13 May 2009
Messages
2,087
Age
45
I get what you are getting at here but, here is a little American Military History. The United States Air Force started out as the Army Air Corp... :cool:
 

Avon

The older I get, the more I forget
Joined
28 Dec 2006
Messages
491
The United States Army Air Corps (USAAC) was a forerunner of the United States Air Force. Renamed from the Air Service on 2 July 1926, it was part of the United States Army and the predecessor of the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF), established in 1941. Although abolished as an organization in 1942, the Air Corps (AC) remained as a branch of the Army until 1947.

The Air Corps was renamed by the United States Congress largely as a compromise between advocates of a separate air arm and those of the Army high command who viewed the aviation arm as an auxiliary branch to support the ground forces. Although its members worked to promote the concept of airpower and an autonomous air force between 1926 and 1941, its primary purpose by Army policy remained support of ground forces rather than independent operations.
 

Adm_Z

Gettin' down and GUI!
Joined
23 Nov 2009
Messages
2,745
I have a question. Were the wargs, or wolves, or whatever ever actually refereed to as an army specifically? We know there was an army of elves, men, goblins, and maybe the dwarves were(there weren't many of them), but were the Wargs ever refereed to as an army? I doubt the Eagles were, but I have another point.


So far, the main contingencies have been 1)were the wargs part of the goblin army, and 2) did Tolkien or bilbo not count the eagles at all. When it comes down to it, though I see evidence for both points, it is much easier to believe that they counted thee eagles than that they didn't. There is no reason for them to leave them out. And then, if the eagles count, then the wargs can't. Simple as that for me.

And in the scope of things, the wargs were not main characters in the book like all the other combatants. The Eagles were because they saved the day. Obviously the dwarves, men, elves and goblins were too. The wargs were not really significant to the story as a whole.
 

Hellkite

Lord of Death
Staff member
Administrator
Seraphim Build Team
Star Fighter
Joined
23 Apr 2006
Messages
7,636
Read to whole Definition don't try selective reading

ar·my
noun \ˈär-mē\
plural armies
Definition of ARMY
1
a : a large organized body of armed personnel trained for war especially on land b : a unit capable of independent action and consisting usually of a headquarters, two or more corps, and auxiliary troops c often capitalized : the complete military organization of a nation for land warfare
2
: a great multitude <an army of birds>
3
: a body of persons organized to advance a cause
See army defined for English-language learners »
See army defined for kids »
Examples of ARMY

the armies of Alexander the Great
He left home and joined the army after he graduated from high school.
The company employs an army of lawyers to handle its legal affairs.
They sent in a whole army of trained technicians.
The organization was founded by a dedicated army of volunteers.

Origin of ARMY
Middle English armee, from Anglo-French, from Medieval Latin armata — more at armada
First Known Use: 14th century
Related to ARMY
Synonyms: array, battalion, host, legion


The debate is over gentle men the point was all ready proven.

I will closes this tread if I have to before it goes any farther and becomes a "Flame war " in accordance of the rule of this site
 
Last edited:

Starfox1701

Master of the Arwing
Warrant Officer
Joined
29 Jan 2008
Messages
2,558
Age
47
Ok guys this is getting silly. Can't we just agree to disagree? Other wize we will have to hold a saince to talk to professer Tolken and I don't know about you but I used up all my witch doctor credits on the lottery:p
 

CABAL

<< ■ II ▶ >>
Staff member
Administrator
Star Navigator
Rogue AI technocrat
Joined
15 Aug 2009
Messages
3,511
Age
32
I have a question. Were the wargs, or wolves, or whatever ever actually refereed to as an army specifically? We know there was an army of elves, men, goblins, and maybe the dwarves were(there weren't many of them), but were the Wargs ever refereed to as an army? I doubt the Eagles were, but I have another point.

The word 'army' is not specifically used to refer to any of the forces gathered for the battle until the line, "So began the battle that none had expected; and it was called the Battle of the Five Armies, and it was very terrible."
 

Adm_Z

Gettin' down and GUI!
Joined
23 Nov 2009
Messages
2,745
Then I think that settles it!:clap: The five armies were the... well, we don't know because none of them are refereed to as armies!:D

I might concede the point(about them being airforce and not army) if the eagles were simply fighting other winged creatures, but they were clearly fighting ground forces. We can't be discriminatory against a race of creatures with wings can we? Just cause they have wings and fight in the air sometimes doesn't mean they aren't an army. They do talk after all.:D


I mean come on, we don't have wings, but we have an airforce.:lol2: Who's to say that winged creatures can't have an army?:lol: Or a navy!:shock::lol2:
 

Avon

The older I get, the more I forget
Joined
28 Dec 2006
Messages
491
The debate is over gentle men the point was all ready proven.

I will closes this tread if I have to

Huh???? So threads are now closed if anyone dissagrees with your point of view? And your points are the only ones that count?

before it goes any farther and becomes a "Flame war " in accordance of the rule of this site
The only person in this thread so far that has been singled out by name, and (borderline) flamed, is me

Hellkite said:
I do not mind a debate but Avon your getting closer to mountain Troll
Hellkite said:
Avon your wrong
Hellkite said:
This just you grasping at straws friend Avon

Just to be clear, i take no offense from comments like this, but when you make such comments, I will always respond to defend myself.:naughty:

With that said, this will definately be my last comment on the subject I promise.
No hard feelings:cool:
 

Hellkite

Lord of Death
Staff member
Administrator
Seraphim Build Team
Star Fighter
Joined
23 Apr 2006
Messages
7,636
Hold it right there.

When the tread all ready had consistence. You would attack that consistence with a another line of thought.

But I address each Quote one at a time

I start wit this one

grasping at straws

You you know that that means?

"To try any method, even those that are not likely to succeed, because you are in such a bad situation "

It a nice way of saying drop it.

I said this because you were arguing just to argue

case in point

Ok, i'll have one last stab at this,


------------
Avon your wrong

I said this

Avon your wrong my friend

that was not being hateful
---------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellkite
I do not mind a debate but Avon your getting closer to mountain Troll

You were being as stubborn as one

but you left off the :lol: that was a friendly barb /joke I could have call you a hard headed dwarf and it would have been a friendly barb /joke and it was meant as such if you took it the wrong way I ask for your forgiveness

-----------
Originally Posted by Hellkite View Post
before it goes any farther and becomes a "Flame war " in accordance of the rule of this site
The only person in this thread so far that has been singled out by name, and (borderline) flamed, is me

The reason I Address you was that you were the only on in the opposition

-------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellkite View Post
The debate is over gentle men the point was all ready proven.

I will closes this tread if I have to

Huh???? So threads are now closed if anyone dissagrees with your point of view? And your points are the only ones that count?

No

My reason for that is that I saw it was escalating towards that point and it part of my duties to Stop it before it starts just as it was my duty to remove this conservation out of the Hobbit thread

it was a statement that I will do my Duty nothing more.



I have not any hard feelings over this I would still consider you a friend and a hell of a good modeler :cool:
 
Last edited:
K

Katala

Deleted Due to Inactivity
Former MSFC Member
Don't make me get my hammer out to you boys! :naughty:
I'm pretty hormonal atm and welcome a chance to vent :p
 

Adm_Z

Gettin' down and GUI!
Joined
23 Nov 2009
Messages
2,745
Then I think that settles it!:clap: The five armies were the... well, we don't know because none of them are refereed to as armies!:D

I might concede the point(about them being airforce and not army) if the eagles were simply fighting other winged creatures, but they were clearly fighting ground forces. We can't be discriminatory against a race of creatures with wings can we? Just cause they have wings and fight in the air sometimes doesn't mean they aren't an army. They do talk after all.:D


I mean come on, we don't have wings, but we have an airforce.:lol2: Who's to say that winged creatures can't have an army?:lol: Or a navy!:shock::lol2:

Since everyone seemed to miss my post, I will post it again!:D:excited:
 

Hellkite

Lord of Death
Staff member
Administrator
Seraphim Build Team
Star Fighter
Joined
23 Apr 2006
Messages
7,636
Discrimination against a race is just bad :naughty: unless the really really deserve it like The badgers they earned it
badger.jpg

;)
 

SciFiFan

MSFC Hunter Vanguard
Staff member
Forum Moderator
Lone Star Hunter
Joined
13 May 2009
Messages
2,087
Age
45
Discrimination against a race is just bad :naughty:
;)

I ALWAYS descriminate against race. I mean...I am sorry! I just cant get into Formula 1! :cry2:
 

Hellkite

Lord of Death
Staff member
Administrator
Seraphim Build Team
Star Fighter
Joined
23 Apr 2006
Messages
7,636
I ALWAYS descriminate against race. I mean...I am sorry! I just cant get into Formula 1! :cry2:

It's better than NASCAR and the not saying much :lol:
 
Top