The Battle of Five Armies Debate

[Hellkite]

Battles? We aint seen nothing yet. The last chapter of the book is called 'the Battle of the 5 armies'
Basically, after bilbo and his companions see off the dragon, everyone decides they want a piece of the mountain full of treasure. And so a massive battle erupts between the woodland elves (legolas' people), an army of men from laketown, a large horde of goblins, a large army of battle-hardened dwarves, and the mighty Beorn (a shapeshifter )

In the book it's epic. I really want to see this

You forgot the fifth army the Eagles

 

[Avon]

You forgot the fifth army the Eagles

How right you are, I forgot about them. And now I re-read my post, there's actually another one I forgot too.
The Wargs from the Misty Mountains were a seperate army too. Certainly seperate from Bolg and the Goblins from Mt Gundabad.

So...er....yeah, that's the full 6 armies that fought in the 'Battle of the 5 Armies'. lol

 

[Hellkite]

the Wargs were part of the Goblin army as there mounts


So the scene was set for a confrontation between the Wood-elves and Lake-men on the one side, and the Dwarves of Thorin and Dáin on the other. Already the first arrows had been shot when a dark cloud was seen coming out of the north - the bats that heralded the Orc-armies of Bolg. The Elves, Men and Dwarves quickly forgot their differences in the face of this new threat, and battle was joined on the slopes of Erebor and the valley beneath. The battle was ferocious, and as it raged, it was joined by others - Eagles out of the Misty Mountains, and even Beorn himself in the shape of a monstrous bear.

 

[Avon]

Lol, awesome. I love debating Tolkien. You should never have got me started

You are quite right in that the Wargs fought along side the Goblins. But I still think of them as a separate army.

The glade in the ring of trees was evidently a meeting place of the wolves. They left guards at the foot of the tree where Dori and Bilbo were.................while all the rest (hundreds and hundreds it seemed) went and sat in a great grey circle in the glade; and in the middle of the circle was a great grey wolf. He spoke to them in the dreadful language of the Wargs

in those days (Goblins) sometimes used to go on raids, especially to get food or slaves to work for them. Then they often got the Wargs to help and shared the plunder with them. Sometimes they rode on wargs like men do on horses................Today the Wargs had come to meet the Goblins and the Goblins were late

now they had planned with the Goblins help to come by night upon some of the villages nearest the mountains. If their plan had been carried out, there would have been none left there next day, all would have been killed except for the few the Goblins kept from the wargs and carried back as prisoners

So began a battle that none had expected; and it was called the Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side were the Goblins and the wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves and Men and Dwarves.

I guess my first point is that the Wargs (or wild Wolves) are not meant to be the mindless savage animals seen in the LOTR movies. In the books they were intelligent, had a language, a leader in charge, and clearly acted independantly from the Goblins (although worked with them on occasion)

My second point is that the Eagles never really entered the battle until right at the end, and so dont seem to be included in the 5 armies

 

[Hellkite]

takeing form The Encyclopedia of Arda

"So began a battle that none had expected; and it was called the Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side were the Goblins and the wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves and Men and Dwarves."
The Hobbit 17 The Clouds Burst

Since the ending of the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, and the Dwarves' ultimate victory at the Battle of Nanduhirion, the Orcs had nursed a hatred of that race. In the year III 2941, the year of Bilbo Baggin's journey to the Lonely Mountain, those events lay more than one hundred and forty years in the past. Travelling through the Misty Mountains, Bilbo, Thorin and their companions were captured by a colony of the Orcs that infested those regions. With Gandalf's help they escaped, but not before killing several of their captors, including their leader the Great Goblin.

The loss of the Great Goblin at the hands of a band of Dwarves inflamed the bitter memories of the Orcs' War with the Dwarves. Under the command of Bolg, whose own father Azog had been killed at Nanduhirion, all the armies of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains, and their allies the wolves and bats, began to gather and plan their revenge.

Oblivious to these events, Bilbo and the Dwarves continued their journey eastward. They achieved their quest to recover Erebor, but in doing so they earned the anger of Thranduil, and indirectly caused the destruction of Lake-town. Thranduil's Wood-elves joined with the Lake-men, and they marched north to claim a share of Smaug's treasure in recompense. In response, Thorin called on his cousin Dáin, who set out with his own army from the Iron Hills.

So the scene was set for a confrontation between the Wood-elves and Lake-men on the one side, and the Dwarves of Thorin and Dáin on the other. Already the first arrows had been shot when a dark cloud was seen coming out of the north - the bats that heralded the Orc-armies of Bolg. The Elves, Men and Dwarves quickly forgot their differences in the face of this new threat, and battle was joined on the slopes of Erebor and the valley beneath. The battle was ferocious, and as it raged, it was joined by others - Eagles out of the Misty Mountains, and even Beorn himself in the shape of a monstrous bear.

By nightfall the Orcs were defeated, but not without great loss. Thorin himself was slain, making a bold attack against the bodyguard of Bolg, and with him fell his young nephews Fíli and Kíli. Bolg was dead, too, crushed by Beorn, and the goblins of the northern mountains were scattered or destroyed.

They were part of the Goblin army as allies along with the bats in the ranks if that army that were not a independent force unto them self's.


Eagles on the other hand were a Independent army inhabited by spirits akin to the Maiar.


The mighty Eagles of the Elder Days were more than mere birds, they were gigantic, intelligent creatures. Thorondor, the greatest of them, had a wingspan of thirty fathoms (55 metres, or 180 feet), and spoke with Elf-lords as an equal. Beings like this first appeared after the awakening of the Elves, when spirits sent by Eru entered the World and inhabited certain of its living things (the Ents first appeared at about this time, for the same reason). 'Ordinary' eagles, of the kind we still know today, must presumably have predated the arrival of these spirits.

Chapter 17 "summery"

The Elven king and Bard return to the front gate the next morning and Thorin refuses to listen to their reasoning. They show him the Arkenstone, and he is enraged. He asks them how they got it and Bilbo admits that it was his doing. Thorin grabs a hold of Bilbo and shakes him, yelling that none of this would have happened if Gandalf had been around. Gandalf throws off his cloak and yells for Thorin to release the hobbit and listen to him. Thorin gets more angry at what he thinks is a conspiracy. He tells Bilbo to leave and promises that his share of the treasure will be sent after him. Gandalf speaks to the dwarf: "'You are not making a very splendid figure as King under the Mountain.'" Chapter 17, pg. 275. Thorin is too enamored with the stone to think of anything else. He tells Bilbo to leave. Bard tells him that they will return the next day to get Bilbo's share.

Thorin sends reluctant ravens to Dain to bid for him to hurry up. The dwarf army of 500 arrives the next morning after marching all night long. His dwarves are veterans of many wars and are outfitted with the best armor and weapons. The men and elves arm themselves for battle. Bard goes to meet the host with Bilbo by his side. Dain says that they are going to join the others at the mountain. Bard will not allow this. The dwarves each carry enough food to last for weeks and months in the mountain. He knows that the siege will be endless if the two parties join. He sends messengers to the mountain to get Bilbo's share, but Thorin just shoots at them.

Bard is enraged, and is eager to begin the battle, but the Elvenking thinks that they should delay it as long as possible. Without signal, the dwarves form ranks and begin to move against the human and elf camps. Just as the armies are about to meet, Gandalf jumps in the middle and hollers for them to halt. He tells them that Bolg, the son of the Great Goblin, is just about to arrive with a great army of goblins and wargs. He calls the leaders in for a council.

He tells them that the goblins have been gathering in great numbers for the past several months. They moved towards the west in search of the Great Goblin's murderer. Now they rush forward with lust for the treasure as well as a desire for revenge. Dain, the Elvenking, and Bard plan to lure the goblins into the valley before the mountain, where their great numbers won't have the same advantage. The elves set their forces on an eastern hill, with the dwarves and men on the west. The mountain is at the north. Bard sees the black hoards racing forward in the distance. They pour into the valley in countless numbers. Early on in the battle, Bilbo dons his magic ring and hides. The elves charge, and slay many goblins with their rampage before bring halted by the sheer numbers of their enemy.

As the elfish onslaught slows, the dwarves and men empty into the valley to reinvigorate the battle. For a short moment, the goblins look defeated, but soon they begin to flank the others by climbing over the side of the mountain. They now surround the two other armies. The battle rages through the day. At dusk, Bard struggles to hold the eastern point. Suddenly, Thorin breaks from the front gate with his dwarves, and many others rally around him. They rush into the center of the enemy and begin to push back the tide of goblins. They have initial success, but their force is just too small to sustain such momentum. They are soon surrounded. Bilbo is in the midst of this battle, and he is sure that they are going to die soon:

" 'Misery me! I have heard songs of many battles, and I have always understood that defeat may be glorious. It seems very uncomfortable, not to say distressing. I wish I was well out of it.'" Chapter 17, pg. 28

The sun is turning a deep red. Bilbo cries out because he sees a host of eagles descending from above. Suddenly, a stone crashes against his helmet and knocks him out.

definition of Host

host
n.
1. An army.
2. A great number; a multitude. See Synonyms at multitude.
[Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin hostis, from Latin, enemy; see ghos-ti- in Indo-European roots.]

 

[Avon]

Well, we are in agreement that the Eagles were a mighty army. Never disputed that

We also seem to be in agreement that Tolkien's own words on the 5 armies were:

and it was called the Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side were the Goblins and the wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves and Men and Dwarves."

These clearly are the 5 armies referred to. And in my opinion, this is about as black and white as you can get, in regards to which are the 5 armies.
Beorn and the Eagles were deliberately left out at this point, as they were the surprise re-inforcements to 'save the day' at the end of the battle.
The main battle itself consisted of the original 5 armies that Tolkien mentions.

But we're arguing semantics really

 

[Adm_Z]

I don't know. I am torn as I haven't read the book in a couple years. I always thought the eagles were the 5th army and the goblins army included orcs, wargs and possibly other nasty creatures.

However, Avon does make a good point.

My thoughts are that nobody named it the battle of the five armies until after it was finished, so why wouldn't that include the eagles? Why would they have left the eagles out, or not simply corrected the name afterwords if somebody actually had the time to name it the battle of five armies in the middle of all of it?

And I don't remember anything about Beorn being a bear and in the battle...


I think the confusion is around the use of the 'and' between the goblins and the wargs.

From the LOTR Wikia: "The Battle of Five Armies was waged between the Goblins and the Wargs against Men, Elves, Dwarves and Eagles"

Wikipedia agrees that the eagles are the 5th army, and the wargs were part of the goblin army. Battle of the Five Armies - Lord of the Rings Wiki

This wikia also classifies the armies in the same way. Wargs, Goblins, and bats make up one army. Battle of Five Armies - Tolkien Gateway


If you think about it, since the winners write history, had the goblins won, they might have considered the men dwarves and elfs part of the same army as we consider the wargs bats and gobliins as one. Just a thought.

However, because the goblins and the wargs were stated to be subordinate to the same commander, I believe that is simply what makes them a single army.

 

[Amateur]

I suppose it could be argues that the Eagles fought from the sky, and despite representing a crucial turning point were not involved in the majority of the fighting and as such were not an army...

Adm_Z, with regards to Beorn:

"In that last hour Beorn himself had appeared - no one knew how or from where. He came alone, and in bear's shape..." (Tolkein, 1937, p.348)

 

[Adm_Z]

Ah... From the sounds of it, Bilbo got hit a bit hard on the head. He may have even imagined the giant eagles too.

I edited my post btw.

 

[Avon]

Well I agree the Wargs were fighting with the Goblins, in the same fashion that the Elves, men, and Dwarves joined forces to fight the oncoming armies.
And I fully accept there is a good case for the Eagles.

But I worry about the use of fan based websites who make summaries and try to interperate Tolkien's work, as a useful source of information. I prefer to get the books out, and read Tolkien's words for myself.

And to use Hellkite's use of the word Host:

Victory now vanished from hope. They had only stemmed the first onslaught of the black tide.
Day drew on. The Goblins gathered again in the valley. There a host of Wargs came ravening and with them came the bodyguard of Bolg

Bearing in mind we know the Goblin army was made up of several bands of Goblins from the grey, and misty mountains, plus their usual array of critters like the bats.
It seems to me that Tolkien constantly refered to the Wargs seperately from the rest of the Goblin horde.

Once again the Goblins were stricken in the valley; and they were piled in heaps till Dale was dark and hideous with their corpses. The Wargs were scattered and Thorin drove right against the bodyguard of Bolg

 

[Adm_Z]

I would quote the book if I had it, but I"m on vacation atm. wikia's are the best I can do.

And as I said before, they may have all technically been seperate armys, but whoever wrote the record of the battle and named it the battle of five armies, I believe, was refering to the wargs and goblins as one army under a single banner, where as the others, though supporting one another in the end, were not fighting for the same cause.

 

[Hellkite]

Avon your wrong my friend http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_the_Five_Armies

 

[Adm_Z]

Thats the same one I linked to hellkite.

"The Battle of Five Armies was waged between the Goblins and the Wargs against Men, Elves, Dwarves and Eagles"

 

[Hellkite]

Thrue but it bared repeating

 

[Avon]

Yeah but its still a fan made website attempting to summarising the story, lol.
Dont make me go get my battleaxe
To be fair, I could show you several sites that say the opposite, including the board games made over the years, but it's ultimately futile.

Let's just hope that they do the battle justice in the movies.

 

[Adm_Z]

I think it is more credible than a board game, IMHO.

And you might as well post your websites so we can have equal grounds. I thought the Memory Alpha of LOTR would be sufficiently credible, but if you have something better, by all means, please post it.

 

[Hellkite]

The Encyclopedia of Arda

it official and it canon end of story

I do not mind a debate but Avon your getting closer to mountain Troll

 

[Adm_Z]

Speaking of trolling, its canon not cannon. *ducks from line of fire*

 

[Hellkite]

Thanks for the spell cheek LOL I blame it on my evil blackberry key pad and my big fingers

 

[Avon]

I think it is more credible than a board game, IMHO.

Some of the board games began production as early as the 1950s and 60s. Long before Tolkien had died. I would think they were more credible than some website only a few years old.

it official and it canon end of story

And yet they say themselves:

The Encyclopedia of Arda is a completely unofficial site, and has no connection with the estate of J.R.R. Tolkien, whose rights are fully acknowledged

So....it's unnoficial and not neccessarilly canon then. Bottom line, unless Tolkien wrote it in the book, it isn't canon. Simple as that

 

[Adm_Z]

Like my suggestion with Memory Alpha, it is completely canon though unofficial. it doesn't have to be official to be canon.

 

[Amateur]

I'm going to have to agree with Avon on this. We're talking about a work of literature here, which means if it's not on the page it's not canon. Everything else is just interpretation.

Now, we know that Tolkien was also a prolific letter writer, so he may have extrapolated upon his original intention. Even then, however, we encounter the issue of meaning - although that moves into narratology and is more suited to a philology seminar than fora.

At the end of the day, citing a wiki - despite its usage of the source material - only ever provides an interpretation. There is no definitive answer in any text.

 

[CABAL]

To the book!

Checking the chapter "The Clouds Burst", Tolkien lists the forces at the beginning of the battle as, "Upon one side were the Goblins and the Wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves and Men and Dwarves." He says that the Goblins showed up first, with the Wargs only arriving when the Goblins had started to lose and took a defensible position on the mountain, and a number of the Wargs had Goblin riders. After the Goblins and Wargs start to win, the Eagles show up and Bilbo gets knocked out so the narration ends.

Over all, the Goblins and Wargs are referred to as both a single army and as two separate armies, but since the Wargs are listed several pages before they appear, I think Tolkien didn't intend for the Eagles to be one of the Five Armies.

 

[Avon]

Like my suggestion with Memory Alpha, it is completely canon though unofficial.

In your opinion.
There are many other Tolkien websites out there. Some, more popular and longer running than the ones you refer to. But they all have slightly differing accounts and re-tellings of the stories and characters. Who's to say the opinion/interpretation of one web site is canon, while another is not.

And seeing as you asked me to provide examples of websites with differing views, I'll give you one. Even though it's ultimately pointless, as this too is just an interpretation.

Names & Etymology:
Called the Battle of the Five Armies because the five main forces were the Dwarves, Elves, and Men on one side and the Orcs and Wargs on the other..........................
..............The Wargs were enraged and sought revenge. They joined the gathering forces of Orcs at Mount Gundabad and marched eastward to the Lonely Mountain. There the Wargs and Orcs fought the Dwarves, Wood-Elves, and Lake-Men in the Battle of the Five Armies.

It's actually quite funny because some websites like Tolkiengateway.net, state quite clearly at the beginning of their description that the five warring parties were the Goblins and the Wargs against Men, Elves and Dwarves. But then in a later paragraph declare the Eagles as the fifth army.

Now, we know that Tolkien was also a prolific letter writer, so he may have extrapolated upon his original intention.

Yeah, I had the same thought, but can find little else on the subject in the letters or the Unfinished Tales (heck, I even checked the Sil.)

I'll leave you with one last quote from the book regarding the distinction between Goblins and Wargs.

“Escaping goblins only to be caught by wolves!†he said,
and it became a proverb, though we now say ‘out of the frying-pan into the fire’ in the same sort of uncomfortable situations.†(Bilbo as the Wargs attack)

 

[Hellkite]

The thing that is as Canon given the following

Official there is no Cannon "Offical "
Statement form Tolkien Estate.

As a result of the manner of its creation, the secondary world of Middle-earth is complicated. Its creator developed various elements of his fiction over the course of decades, making substantial changes including the abandonment of major themes, facts and entire tales, and undertook wholesale rewrites and revisions of otherwise 'complete' narratives. The author's opinions on the relationships of his texts to each other often changed. In his letters, Tolkien comments upon the intertextual relationships of his works:

"I am doubtful myself about the undertaking [of finishing The Silmarillion]. Part of the attraction of the L.R. [The Lord of the Rings] is, I think, due to the glimpses of a large history in the background: an attraction like that of viewing far off an unvisited island, or seeing the towers of a distant city gleaming in a sunlit mist. To go there is to destroy the magic, unless new unattainable vistas are again revealed."

The quest by some readers for a consistent fictional canon within some subset of Tolkien's writings was noted by Verlyn Flieger. Since the degree of narrative consistency that might be expected from a series of novels is not always found in Tolkien's work, Flieger attributed the need on the part of some readers to find consistency within the stories to the sense of reality that Tolkien strove to instil in his work, although the search for a definitive fictional canon has been seen as ultimately irrelevant to appreciation of his tales

 

[CABAL]

The lack of perfect continuity over-all that's pointed out in HK's quote actually makes perfect sense when you consider that The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings were written (in universe) from the perspective of just two characters after the events themselves took place. The Battle of the Five Armies may have been just Bilbo's name for it (and he did get knocked out just after the Eagles arrived) and the other factions may have named it something different, like the Battle of Lonely Mountain or The Battle of Erebor. In fact, any specific errors could simply be due to the Hobbits (or others writing the stories) getting something wrong or the story mutating over the years.

EDIT: I just found a list that has eight different factions for the battle; Dain's Dwarves, Thorin's Dwarves, Elves of Mirkwood, Men of Esgaroth, Eagles, Goblins, Wargs, and Bats.

 

[Hellkite]

The thing is that you need to look at their objectives and group them accordingly to them.

(1) The Men of Esgaroth " Laketown" were fighting for reparations for the losses encored for the lost of homes in the dragon's attack they were also the descendants of the Men of Dale and Dale the pillaged at the same time as the lost of the Dwarven kingdom by the Dragon

(2) Elves of Mirkwood were there because they have given aid to the men of Lake town as were asking for compensation for that efford add to that Thorin's refusal to tell them why he was in their Territory and compounded by his escape

(3) Dain's Dwarves, Thorin's 12 Dwarves the recovery and keeping of their kingdom and its treasurer for themselves

(4) Goblins along with there allies the wolves and bats, began to gather and plan their revenge for The loss of the Great Goblin as well as greed of gold

(5) Eagles arrived just to kill the Goblins like Beorn but the were in a grate numbers unlike Beorn note they may have been the last to arive but they were there of a whole day the battle only lasted 2 day and a night

So there are your Five Armies

 

[Adm_Z]

Exactly how I would classify it.

The goblins, wargs and whatever else were striving for the same goal where as the others, being separate allied armies had their own agenda. Again, this is not to say that each faction of the goblin army wasn't its own army, but in terms of the battle of five armies, they are considered(by me at least) one army based on their singular goal.

 

[Starfox1701]

Same guy that did Pelinor with 10 more years to polish their craft. What do you think it will look like

 

[Adm_Z]

Wuuuuut?